re-torque

[Mikeg]

Does the LP12 need to be re-torqued more often than a 'Linn tight' one? If so how often?

I ask because there is a serious amount of energy in the system which over time could loosen the bolts. I know speaker bolts can benefit from re-torquing periodically.

Mike

[lejonklou]

Hi Mike!

I'm not sure what you're asking. There is no "Linn tight" possible on fasteners that go into wood. In my experience, those are the ones that need retorqueing. The really serious enthusiasts do it twice a year if the climate is like here in Sweden: Damp in the summer and dry in the winter. That causes the wood to swell and shrink. Thankfully there aren't that many fasteners that go into wood, so it doesn't take that long.

[Mikeg]

Hi

I was using 'Linn tight' as a shorthand for the traditional setup method of most dealers.

Just to give you a bit of background on the reason for the question. Some time ago I acquired a Skale but didn't get on with it. I couldn't understand why because on other forums everyone else seemed to love it. I then came across a comment by Thomas that he didn't like it and preferred the std Linn counterweight. I started to wonder if perhaps it didn't work with the optimised torque settings but that it did with the more traditional setup - maybe by toning down any edge to the sound. So I reset the deck (I had previously identified the torque values used by a dealer here in the UK) and tried the Skale again but I still preferred the std weight.

Anyway when I reset my deck using the correct torque values it sounded better than before hence the question on re-torquing the deck periodically. I didn't change all of the fixings just the bearing, arm board/collar and collar arm pillar.


Mike

[lejonklou]

Very interesting Mike! Thanks for sharing.

I think "Linn tight" should be reserved for the original meaning, which is very, very tight (tight - very tight - Linn tight).

What kind of arm board do you have? You said you re-torqued arm board to collar and that fastener is in my experience one of those that change with time. I have not improved the performance of my deck by re-torqueing the main bearing (which has the highest torque of all fasteners on the LP12) or the tonearm height adjustment screw (=collar to arm pillar). So in my impression, these appear not to change with time.

[beck]

Hi Mike.
You have done the right thing using your own ears (helped by Thomas you cannot go wrong). I have only heard the skale via clips but they showed the skale to do the same thing wrong as the tranq. They both push the overtones of the music out of balance (out of tune).
If your mission is music you are on the right track.

[ThomasOK]

It is certainly possible for the torques to drift a bit over time and an occasional reset is not a bad idea. I can't say how often is optimal but I would think every 3 to 5 years would be a good starting point. Note that on an LP12 there are a number of fasteners where wood of one type or another is involved: the top plate is clamped to the plinth and the wood blocks, the hinge plates are screwed to the plinth, the motor stud is bolted to a cross brace, the armboard screws go into mdf and the arm collar bolts fasten through the mdf laminate (not applicable on the Keel or Kore, of course). So those are the ones most likely to shift. I have not found there to be an optimal torque on the Trampolin 2 or Urika as it sounds the same anywhere between snug and almost stripping, I just tighten those by feel and replace any screws showing signs of stripping out the wood. I have found torques to have changed on the arm collar bolts and top plate nuts on some, but not all, turntables brought back to me after several years. As a matter of course I go over all torques any time I reset a turntable. I would think, and my experience has been, that the metal on metal ones, like arm height bolt, AC motor mounting bolts and grounding screws on the new subchassis, are likely to not change as much. But it can't hurt to redo them.

[Mikeg]

Very interesting Mike! Thanks for sharing.

I think "Linn tight" should be reserved for the original meaning, which is very, very tight (tight - very tight - Linn tight).

What kind of arm board do you have? You said you re-torqued arm board to collar and that fastener is in my experience one of those that change with time. I have not improved the performance of my deck by re-torqueing the main bearing (which has the highest torque of all fasteners on the LP12) or the tonearm height adjustment screw (=collar to arm pillar). So in my impression, these appear not to change with time.

The arm board is kore so the only fasteners I changed were metal to metal and I think Linn tight was appropriate for the way a Linn dealer had set up my deck previously, at least for the bearing and arm board connections.

It may simply have been the comparison of going back to a properly torqued deck after the traditional dealer setup that made it seem better.

Anyway I have proved to myself again that a properly torqued deck sounds significantly better than the traditional dealer setup. It is so much better that I am surprised that more dealers do not use it. I am only aware of one dealer in the UK that uses the torque method and he is in the south of England.


Mike

[Charlie1]

Anyway I have proved to myself again that a properly torqued deck sounds significantly better than the traditional dealer setup. It is so much better that I am surprised that more dealers do not use it. I am only aware of one dealer in the UK that uses the torque method and he is in the south of England.

It's always surprised me too. I always wondered if they don't won't to let go of a belief that 'they' make a difference when doing the fixings purely by feel. Perhaps they do make a difference compared to some dealers, but that's not to say even better can be achieved with a torque driver.

I suppose it could also be that some don't like the idea of taking on ideas promoted by another Linn dealer. If Linn came out and said it then perhaps it would be different.

Tony Lockwood torques my deck, so that's one more. He's in Suffolk.

[lejonklou]

It is certainly possible for the torques to drift a bit over time and an occasional reset is not a bad idea. I can't say how often is optimal but I would think every 3 to 5 years would be a good starting point.

Interesting! As I have a small group of customers that have their LP12's adjusted twice a year (for damp and dry climate), I do a shorter tuning procedure. But I like your idea of a complete reset, for instance every 3 years. I have probably never waited that long when re-evaluating the metal-to-metal fasteners to see whether they've changed. I also suspect that it could be related to electrical resistance. Several joints are steel to aluminium, which is a combination prone to corrosion and they probably benefit from a reset.

Anyway I have proved to myself again that a properly torqued deck sounds significantly better than the traditional dealer setup. It is so much better that I am surprised that more dealers do not use it. I am only aware of one dealer in the UK that uses the torque method and he is in the south of England.

It's always surprised me too. I always wondered if they don't won't to let go of a belief that 'they' make a difference when doing the fixings purely by feel. Perhaps they do make a difference compared to some dealers, but that's not to say even better can be achieved with a torque driver.

I suppose it could also be that some don't like the idea of taking on ideas promoted by another Linn dealer. If Linn came out and said it then perhaps it would be different.

Tony Lockwood torques my deck, so that's one more. He's in Suffolk.

It's definitely a combination of what you mention, Charlie. As setting up an LP12 requires skill and by many is described as "black art", the customer's trust in the dealer is crucial. And to gain that trust and make the customer stay loyal, it's much better if it depends on a personal and impossible-to-measure manual skill of the dealer. A torque value removes all the mystery.

Another factor is that the tool we're using is not exactly user friendly. It requires practice to set and to read. And every value needs to first be checked by ear, using your own tool, to reach the highest peak of performance. One can't simply use 1.6 for the arm height screw and expect ultimate performance as the smallest, final steps are often the most significant. I have found that some don't have the time and patience for this.

A third factor is Not Invented Here. Lots of big ego's in the HiFi business!