Jazz

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Charlie1
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Jazz

Post by Charlie1 »

I recently bought 'Sunday at the Village Vanguard' cos it's a favourite of a member here and I feel I'm largely missing out on the whole jazz thing. After all, what's the point of a good stereo if it can't get me into new types of music. I feel I 'should' be enjoying jazz - anyone else feel like that?

Unfortunately, I am struggling as normal though. I'm missing melody, structure and mood. One exception is the second track, called 'My Man's Gone Now', which is quite somber and seems to have some point and musical message to offer.

The playing is excellent throughout but it's mainly notes going up and down, down and up, up and down. Four of the six tracks have these long winded stand-up bass solos that just go on and on and seem largely meaningless to me - they don't convey any mood or meaning, at least not that I can appreciate.

At least the album doesn't sound like a cacophony on the LP12 - even my wife complained when I streamed it through the Sneaky last weekend. I think she called it a racket.

I could play the LP in the background and be quite happy so long as I was preoccupied with something more interesting, but that's not what I was hoping for.

I like Burbeck's 'Take Five' and MDs 'Blue in Green' though.

I should probably call it a day, but any thoughts, tips, recommendations are welcome.
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Re: Jazz

Post by beck »

You are not alone. Jazz can be so many things. You have to pick the music you like. I have given up on jazz where it is more about the "battle" between musicians than creating a structured piece of music (a bit like classical music).
I have found jazz that I do like very much. Do not give up just yet. Listen to different jazz and you will find beauty and more.
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Re: Jazz

Post by Spannko »

I had a quick listen on Qobuz. I like jazz, but I thought they sounded like an hotel cocktail bar band that everyone talks over. I wouldn't be in any hurry to hear it again!

Have you tried "Ben Webster Meets Oscar Peterson", Charlie? I find it really accessible. The Oscar Peterson Trio playing on " We Get Requests" is easy to get into too. My favourite jazz album is "Into The Cool" by Gil Evans (not Bill!). Gil's not as accessible as Oscar, but I find every track just fascinating to listen to.
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Re: Jazz

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:You are not alone. Jazz can be so many things. You have to pick the music you like. I have given up on jazz where it is more about the "battle" between musicians than creating a structured piece of music (a bit like classical music).
I have found jazz that I do like very much. Do not give up just yet. Listen to different jazz and you will find beauty and more.
Thanks Beck. Yes, I think you're right and I have to put a bit more effort looking for what makes me tick.
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Re: Jazz

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote:I had a quick listen on Qobuz. I like jazz, but I thought they sounded like an hotel cocktail bar band that everyone talks over. I wouldn't be in any hurry to hear it again!

Have you tried "Ben Webster Meets Oscar Peterson", Charlie? I find it really accessible. The Oscar Peterson Trio playing on " We Get Requests" is easy to get into too. My favourite jazz album is "Into The Cool" by Gil Evans (not Bill!). Gil's not as accessible as Oscar, but I find every track just fascinating to listen to.
Thanks Spannko. I will stream 'Ben Webster Meets Oscar Peterson' and see what I think. I have 'We Get Requests' which I do quite like, although I find it a bit 'bland but nice' in places, like polite dinner party music.

Forgot to mention I have really like Keith Jarrett's Coln Concert, or what I've played of it, but I don't think I've ever lasted till the end of side one more than once. It just goes on and on too much for me. But I really like the opening 20 mins or so.

I listened to side A of 'Kind of Blue' last night and very much enjoyed 'Freddie Freeloader' once it got going. I think my system was probably sounding a bit 'boring' last time I played this LP, which I unfairly blamed on it being a modern re-issue.
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Re: Jazz

Post by Lego »

Give it time and keep playing it Charlie,it'll sink in eventually,improvisattion takes repeated listening or get a Kairn and press the mono button :0)
Was this album originally recorded in mono a lot of Jazz around this time was recorded in stereo.

Whatever you do dont listen to Ornette Colemans Double quartet or watch any Antonioni movies,opposite ends of the spectrum.

I get different things out of music,Jazz just brings different things to the table, some of it structured a lot of it impressionistic.

Hold on!!..Scott la Faro plays on that album,one of the greatest bass players out there who died soon after that gig.Go back and just listen to the bass playing alone,the rest will fall into place,eventually, it takes repeated listening.

Unlike the Beatles who's hits were never too far away from the chorus ..'she loves you yeh yeh yeh.' a minute later 'she loves you .etc etc.' probably the opposite of improvisation but great for keeping peoples attention

sorry for the discord,in between clients

ps does Google Play stream the whole album,tidal used to but not at the moment

If you like the style of Dave Brubeck I'd try Art Peppers .'.Smack up' album ie stream it first then decide and if you like it listen to another AP album and so on ..as far I am concerned they're all good..If you are finding you just like a couple of tracks of each album ..maybe you should ,please don't take this as in anyway patronising ,set yourself up a Jazz playlist .LOL..

Is there any music you can easily connect with that doesn't have singing in it and if not maybe try some blue eyed jazz :0)

I'll play the album to my kids tonight they've usually got plenty to say about everything I play .. though I'm struggling to think of a track that id describe as a cacophony
Last edited by Lego on 2017-05-15 13:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jazz

Post by Donald »

Sound very similar to my own experiences with "Jazz at the Pawnshop" which, according to Wikipedia, is "...widely regarded by audiophiles as the best jazz recording of the 20th Century."

Unfortunately I can't agree!

While the album is superbly recorded with excellent production values there is a strong sense of a bored band onstage simply going through the motions! Sure you get all the ambience and the audience chatter but, to borrow a phrase from charlie1's OP," ....they don't convey any mood or meaning"! - put simply, dull.

Haven't heard "Sunday at the Village Vanguard" but I don't think I'll be rushing out to buy it anytime soon!

Fortunately there are a countless number of Jazz styles to suit different tastes and I note you have already mentioned a liking for some Brubeck and MD - not a bad place to start and a rich and varied back catalogue to keep you busy for some time. If you are feeling brave then have a listen to some Eric Dolphy, Charles Mingus or Ornette Coleman. You'll be in safe hands with Ray Charles and any of the big band leaders.

For modern offerings I would turn to anything by the Esbjörn Svensson Trio (EST) or Michael Wollny - indeed enjoy exploring the diverse range of European Jazz from ACT Music, ECM or Rune Grammofon.

And to bring you right up to date, try Tim Garland or Binker and Moses, although this last one might at times fall into your category of "cacophony"!

And don't start me off on the "stuff" that Linn Records attempts to pass off as Jazz these days ...!
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Re: Jazz

Post by Lego »

Donald wrote:Sound very similar to my own experiences with "Jazz at the Pawnshop" which, according to Wikipedia, is "...widely regarded by audiophiles as the best jazz recording of the 20th Century."

Unfortunately I can't agree!

While the album is superbly recorded with excellent production values there is a strong sense of a bored band onstage simply going through the motions! Sure you get all the ambience and the audience chatter but, to borrow a phrase from charlie1's OP," ....they don't convey any mood or meaning"! - put simply, dull.

Haven't heard "Sunday at the Village Vanguard" but I don't think I'll be rushing out to buy it anytime soon!

Fortunately there are a countless number of Jazz styles to suit different tastes and I note you have already mentioned a liking for some Brubeck and MD - not a bad place to start and a rich and varied back catalogue to keep you busy for some time. If you are feeling brave then have a listen to some Eric Dolphy, Charles Mingus or Ornette Coleman. You'll be in safe hands with Ray Charles and any of the big band leaders.

For modern offerings I would turn to anything by the Esbjörn Svensson Trio (EST) or Michael Wollny - indeed enjoy exploring the diverse range of European Jazz from ACT Music, ECM or Rune Grammofon.

And to bring you right up to date, try Tim Garland or Binker and Moses, although this last one might at times fall into your category of "cacophony"!

And don't start me off on the "stuff" that Linn Records attempts to pass off as Jazz these days ...!
It's all down to taste I suppose I love trad jazz and JATPS is one of the best trad jazz albums I have ..I'm biased as I love Scandinavian playing especially all the great jazz trios that are coming from that part of the world ,EST a prime example .
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Re: Jazz

Post by Donald »

Lego wrote: It's all down to taste I suppose I love trad jazz and JATPS is one of the best trad jazz albums I have ..I'm biased as I love Scandinavian playing especially all the great jazz trios that are coming from that part of the world ,EST a prime example .
Agreed, which is why I mentioned that " ... there are a countless number of Jazz styles to suit different tastes "

If you want to try out a Jazz trio nearer to home then have a listen to Fergus McCreadie who I discovered at the Glasgow Jazz Festival in 2016. Rumour has it that they are working on their first album but meantime there are SoundCloud examples to be found here: -

http://www.fergusmccreadie.co.uk/

https://soundcloud.com/fergus-mccreadie ... eadie-trio
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Charlie1
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Re: Jazz

Post by Charlie1 »

Wow, thanks Leo and Donald. Also thanks to Beck who PMd me a couple of recommendations the other day.

I do like Ray Charles and Duke Ellington but tend not to think of them as jazz. I suppose I'd call them big band but I guess that's just another form of jazz. Please forgive my ignorance.

I am already streaming some of your suggestions.

A jazz playlist is a good idea.

Leo, Mr Evans was only a cacophony (or a racket) on the Sneaky, not the LP12. I do fear Google Play and my iPhone is not up to it though. I played 'Freddie Freeloader' (which I played earlier on the LP12) and it just wasn't happening - more annoying than anything. The Sneaky/104s might be OK - dunno. I'll see.
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Re: Jazz

Post by jewa »

You need to start with something really good like Miles Davis – Seven steps to heaven. A lot of classics is very bland in my opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msW13gUZRVk
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Re: Jazz

Post by donuk »

I always suggest to people who are new to jazz, and perhaps do not have a developed ear for it to try some of the simpler artists. That is, perhaps easier to understand, giving more hint of the original tune and chord progression in their improvisations. You can then assess what they are trying to do. Ask yourself - if they played a wrong note, would I know? If the answer is no, the music is either pretentious rubbish or too complex.

Also get a disk with tunes that you perhaps already know - like the standards (or the great American song book).

So perhaps not too modern - Chet Baker is great and easy to digest. As usually is Stan Getz or Paul Desmond. Or Stephane Grappelli.
People like Oscar Peterson and Art Tatum are fantastic, but often play too many notes to follow.

And if it is guitarists you want, Barney Kessell, Joe Pass and of course Django Rheinhardt.


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Re: Jazz

Post by Lego »

donuk wrote:I always suggest to people who are new to jazz, and perhaps do not have a developed ear for it to try some of the simpler artists. That is, perhaps easier to understand, giving more hint of the original tune and chord progression in their improvisations. You can then assess what they are trying to do. Ask yourself - if they played a wrong note, would I know? If the answer is no, the music is either pretentious rubbish or too complex.

Also get a disk with tunes that you perhaps already know - like the standards (or the great American song book).

So perhaps not too modern - Chet Baker is great and easy to digest. As usually is Stan Getz or Paul Desmond. Or Stephane Grappelli.
People like Oscar Peterson and Art Tatum are fantastic, but often play too many notes to follow.

And if it is guitarists you want, Barney Kessell, Joe Pass and of course Django Rheinhardt.


Donuk rainy downtown York
Spoken like a true master ;0)
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Re: Jazz

Post by Lego »

Played my foolish heart to to my younger daughter Charlie and she said maybe you don't like it because it's not syncopated and perhaps you should try and look out more syncopated jazz .
I asked her who she thought was the most talented in the trio .."Probably the bass player" ...then she handed me the twister dial so that's the end of that conversation
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Re: Jazz

Post by lejonklou »

I like this thread. It's good and simple. Far from the "How do you listen?" which has been nagging me because I would like to chime in, but I haven't managed to put my thoughts into words. I sure don't have an easy relationship to music, it's a lot of love and hate. To be happy, it seems I need a "fix" on a regular interval. But I often prefer silence to hearing something I don't fully enjoy.

But this is a nice thread. I've listened to jazz in periods, but it was a good while since the last one. It started in my youth with Chet Baker and Stan Getz, then continued with Miles Davis, Dave Brubeck, Charlie Parker, Art Pepper and some Keith Jarrett. Then there's lots that I don't quite get. John Coltrane is one of those artists that got friends in a spin, but I always though he was merely OK and I must be missing something. My wife likes EST and Jonas Kullhammar, which I wish I liked because they play so cool and it seems clever and inventive - but in the end I just don't get it emotionally.

Then I started thinking about which jazz albums I've played the most. The Milcho Leviev Quartet 'Blues for the Fisherman' might actually be number one. I've read books to it, done calculations to it, drawn circuits to it, drunk lots of tea to it. And sometimes just listened. Easy and accessible, a bit repetitive and hypnotic. That seems to suit me.

On a related track, I feel that some Krautrock has a lot of jazz in it. Purists will protest I'm sure, but for me improvisations on top of a slowly progressing mechanical base often speak directly to my soul in the same way as paintings by Paul Klee do.

Now I'm going to put some jazz on the LP12! And I'll be checking out your suggestions above.
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Re: Jazz

Post by beck »

You made a good call Fredrik. Let us mention the jazz album we play the most regardless of what we think about it in terms of quality and more.

My most played album is: "Anything But Grey" by Palle Mikkelborg. Fantastic recording as well!
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Re: Jazz

Post by Charlie1 »

donuk wrote:So perhaps not too modern - Chet Baker is great and easy to digest. As usually is Stan Getz or Paul Desmond. Or Stephane Grappelli.
Thanks Don! I will try these. I don't think I've listened to any of them before.
Lego wrote:Played my foolish heart to to my younger daughter Charlie and she said maybe you don't like it because it's not syncopated and perhaps you should try and look out more syncopated jazz .
I asked her who she thought was the most talented in the trio .."Probably the bass player" ...then she handed me the twister dial so that's the end of that conversation
Yeah, maybe I'm just too used to modern music. I'll be open and admit that I had to watch this youtube video to learn what syncopation is :( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTQ1A7YT1pQ
lejonklou wrote:Then I started thinking about which jazz albums I've played the most. The Milcho Leviev Quartet 'Blues for the Fisherman' might actually be number one.
Unfortunately, this is not on Google Play, although they have Milcho Leviev. I'm sure I can find it somewhere though.
beck wrote:You made a good call Fredrik. Let us mention the jazz album we play the most regardless of what we think about it in terms of quality and more.

My most played album is: "Anything But Grey" by Palle Mikkelborg. Fantastic recording as well!
Thanks Beck. I have played this Live concert most which I picked up in a charity shop years ago (https://vinyl-west.de/catalog/32971/duk ... t-hits.jpg), although it's not the improvisational type that I typically think of as being jazz. I wonder if is includes much syncopation, or not...
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Re: Jazz

Post by jewa »

And although I find the classics stand their ground, there is also new jazz that some might find more easily accessible, like Avishai Cohen Trio (Mark Guiliana on drums): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n3g2xhJqx8

/jrr
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Re: Jazz

Post by Music Lover »

I like playing jazz more than listening to it.
For me, jazz is all about musicians interacting in real-time and hence - best enjoyed performing it yourself in real-time.
Not the same listening to OTHERS doing it.
Very seldom play jazz at home.
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Re: Jazz

Post by Charlie1 »

jewa wrote:And although I find the classics stand their ground, there is also new jazz that some might find more easily accessible, like Avishai Cohen Trio (Mark Guiliana on drums): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n3g2xhJqx8
Thanks jewa - sorry, I forgot to thank you for your previous post.
Music Lover wrote:I like playing jazz more than listening to it.
For me, jazz is all about musicians interacting in real-time and hence - best enjoyed performing it yourself in real-time.
What instrument do you play ML?
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Re: Jazz

Post by Music Lover »

Drums and (secondary) clarinet.
But I don't like listening to long drum solos either, of same reason.

Generally
Not found of musicians "showing off" their skills in a TOO obvious way, example by speed, doing somerhing really dificult or keep on forewer (long solo)
Music for me it's about expressing something, it's not about how good you are.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Jazz

Post by donuk »

Music Lover wrote:I like playing jazz more than listening to it.
For me, jazz is all about musicians interacting in real-time and hence - best enjoyed performing it yourself in real-time.
Not the same listening to OTHERS doing it.
Very seldom play jazz at home.
Good job we don't all feel like you or else we would never have any audiences....

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Re: Jazz

Post by Spannko »

Let's not forget After Midnight by The Nat King Cole Trio. Nat started out as a jazz pianist, then he discovered he was quite a good vocalist too! It's another one of my favourite jazz albums.
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Re: Jazz

Post by Music Lover »

donuk wrote:
Music Lover wrote:I like playing jazz more than listening to it.
For me, jazz is all about musicians interacting in real-time and hence - best enjoyed performing it yourself in real-time.
Not the same listening to OTHERS doing it.
Very seldom play jazz at home.
Good job we don't all feel like you or else we would never have any audiences....
However, good for you...I like dancing to jazz.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Jazz

Post by Lego »

I think the best way to appreciate jazz Charlie is to get to know the standards .Good places to start are Ella Fitzgerald singing Cole Porter
Duke Ellington ,Rogers and Hart, and George and Ira Gershwin etc.

A lot of jazz is mainly cover versions of popular tunes that were well known....The same with hip hop which use samples of classic tunes .

Sarah Vaughan singing Duke Ellington and the above is what I started with and by the time I started listening to miles and Coltrane etc I knew most of the tunes and appreciated their renditions.

This was the track that got me into jazz especially the sound of the brushes just after 7:30 mins,they nearly made me jump out of my chair,which was about 4 ft away from my mission 700s , smallish bedroom.I've never managed to recreate that immediacy since then.

https://youtu.be/PPsM9W3vBfI
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