A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

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Defender
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Defender »

here are my findings for Ekos 2 and Arkiv B (not sure if it really is and Arkiv B as Arkiv B should have the serial number on the right side and has Linn Arkiv in silver letters on the cartridge ... mine has it in gold letters and serial number on the right side ... however I was told mine got a retip and the cantilever looks charcoal.

arm leveled so is swings around the parallel level and settles at parallel - there is no notch at the parallel level

most musical at VTF at 1.72 and antiscate at 1.70

However measured with a digital scale it measures 1.92

hesitating to change it from there as I am happy with how it plays right now
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ThomasOK
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

When I had an Akiva I found it was most musical at 1.72 grams indicated as well. I would recommend leaving the tracking force dial right where it is but moving the counterweight slightly back until the scale reads 1.72 to 1.75 grams instead of 1.92 and see how it sounds. You can always return it to where it was if you don't like it but I believe you will improve perfromance further. I would also try anti-skating around 2.0 to 2.05 grams as that is more typically where I have found Ekos 2 and 1 to be most musical.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Defender »

thank you Thomas I knew you you would say that ;) I will try.
Are you aware that some say you should adjust anti skating putting the needle where the grove runs out but not into the grove and adjust AS in a way that it just barely moves inwards before it finds the grove - if I do that I have much less AS in the region of 1.65
this comes from re-tip guy like sound smith who look at where the tip is more worn out in most of their jobs
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

As I'm getting ready to leave the store for my New Years Eve celebrations this reply will be unusually brief (especially for me). ;-)

That method of setting anti-skate is incorrect and totally useless. Anti-skate compensates for an inward force caused by friction of the stylus in the groove. Put the stylus on flat vinyl and you have radically altered that friction and invalidated the approach. The only useful way is to test by listening for when everything is the most focused and musical.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Defender »

I see what you mean - thank you for this short but informative answer
have a lot of fun at your New Years Eve celebration and a healthy new year.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Hermann »

update - EKOS 2 with Arkiv B
Tracingforce_x.JPG
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Defender »

I was working again with my tonearm as I wanted to check if the bearings are o.k.

What I did was balancing it to 0/floating with no tracking force.
Than I used faint blowing from the side to see if it gets stuck somewhere. Movement was easy and seemed completely free. So I thought I should use a very low antiskating setting of 0.3 to 0.4 to check if it swings back without getting stuck somewhere.
It was swinging back free from center of LP to the middle of the playing area where it stopped - if I was pushing it over this point it was moving free to the outside of the LP.

Should the arm swing completely from in to out without stopping in the middle meaning my bearings have an issue?
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by V.A.MKD »

Hi Defender,
As far as I know, tonearm with anti - skating 0.3-0.4 mast go back to "tonearm - rest" ...
But, maybe it's not bearing issue, maybe it's "tonearm wire" issue ...
Best will be to contact official service ... or some suggestions here, from much more experienced members than me ... Maybe I'm wrong ...
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Defender »

just for correcting things my retipped Arkiv B sounds best at 1.79 ITF
I have not measured the real TF (MTF)
Antiskating is now at 2.1

as most of the cartridges did fall into the space of 1.70-1.76 I didnt test higher weights and 1.72 sounded very open to me (trap) I thought thats the right setting

I am sorry that probably made things in the Playground section for clocking the platter unnecessarily more difficult.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Catweazle »

Anyone running an Akiva on Ekos SE/1 yet?
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Catweazle »

Catweazle wrote: 2022-03-05 23:37 Anyone running an Akiva on Ekos SE/1 yet?
Well, well. so I volunteer. Very preliminary results:

Ekos SE/1 with Akiva (Torlai refurbished)

ITF 1,70 (short, maybe 1,69)
MTF 1,80 (cheap digital scale)
AS 1,80

I did'nt go further to adjust the counter weight, cause I'm keen to listen to some new records first 😊

Moreover, I'm not confident of the bounce. I collected the LP12 after some major upgrades at my dealer yesterday. He already observed friday late afternoon (and told me on the phone), that the LP12 behaved differently in the workshop (perfect bounce) and in the listening room (wobbly). The obvious change (not the root cause) was, that he had used different outer platters. So I took my outer platter with me, and the LP12 didn't like that one either. Root cause was one of the springs misbehaving. A new spring went in, and we waited an hour or two, before I had to leave. Usually, my dealer would have kept the LP12, so that the spring can bed in. But this would have ment another journey (my home is a 1 hrs drive away). So we took the gamble. When I arrived at home yesterday, bounce was stil nice, but this morning it is a bit wobbly again, almost as expected. My XLR to RCA cables are still on the tbd list, and the transport box for the Radikal needs to go back to the store, so we can kill three birds with one stone, once the cables are done.

I'm a bit embarrased of the arm lift (which I usually never use). It feels a bit stiff, like the arm goes up, but not down again. Moreover, the lever can be pushed right down to the arm board (my old Ekos stopped at vertical). I'm not sure it works like designed? But Linn docs is not very verbose on how to use an Ekos SE/1. Given the item price (alert: user story!)

As a consumer I would like to get an informative user manual so that I know what to expect from my product. 🖖

I'll investigate into BTF by shifting the counter weight, once I'm sure the gear is set up correctly.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Tendaberry »

Hi Catweazle, sorry hear that it's not working as it should. I don't think you're supposed to move the lever down, you just start the downwards movement and let the arm slowly lower itself. The lift will then also automatically lower itself.
Do try adjusting the indicated TF to 1,75 on the scale, measure the actual TF and adjust the counterweight until the measured TF reads 1,72.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

Yes, the newer cueing device doesn't work the same as the older one. As Tendaberry said you just get it started and let it travel the rest of the way itself. Pushing it will let you get it all the way to the armboard and will prevent the arm from lowering as the other side of the cam is in the way. Also the cueing arm will not go completely horizontal by itself but will rest in a slightly up position. This is normal for the cueing device they have been using for a number of years now.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Catweazle »

Thank you @Tendaberry and @ThomasOK. My expectation was wrong, and the arm lift obviously works as designed 🍻
Usually, I would have heard the LP12 at my dealer's, and learned such things but due to the issue with the spring we were running out of time, as I had to rush back home.
Meanwhile I played some records, and love what I bought. After a week of usage, the bounce also appears okish. I'm sure, next time my dealer is around town he'll drop me a call, and pop in anyway. He still have 3 pairs of silvers in the backorder, and I have one of his Klimax transport boxes that he kindly lent me to carry the Radikal.
I'll try to optimize TF later. At present we have too many other things to do here, and at the same time lots of work in my job. Playing with TF works much better for me, when I'm in a relaxed state of mind.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Charlie1 »

Just a quick thank you to Tom, Fredrik and the Lejonklou dealer in Italy (forget his name) for sharing this a couple of years ago. I've always improved the sound of my decks by following this process and know I'm not alone in that.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

You're welcome (and it is Paolo Nobile). I just had a long distance customer bring me a turntable yesterday for a Karousel and Radikal 2 upgrade. It had been several years since he had been in and I noticed his original Ekos SE had the anti-skating set to 1.75. Figuring that meant that I had set it up before I knew about the anti-skating error and the tracking force method mentioned here I decided I should investigate further. The tracking force measured on the scale was 1.91 and it improved the music when the counterweight was moved to read 1.75 along with the dial. The anti-skating was best just a hair over 2.0. Always cool to be able to dial just a little bit more perfromance out of a customer's table. He and his wife both commented on how good it sounded even through the little PSB speakers and NAD amp I have on the setup bench.
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2022-07-13 16:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Charlie1 »

very nice!

It makes so much difference to have a dealer that really cares about their work
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Hermann »

Update - Ekstatik
Trackingforce 11.07.2022x.JPG
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by snatex »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-03-23 22:47 You're welcome (and it is Paolo Nobile). I just had a long distance customer bring me a turntable yesterday for a Karousel and Radikal 2 upgrade. It had been several years since he had been in and I noticed his original Ekos SE had the anti-skating set to 1.75. Figuring that meant that I had set it up before I knew about the anti-skating error and the tracking force method mentioned here I decided I should investigate further. The tracking force measured on the scale was 1.91 and it improved the music when the counterweight was moved to read 1.75 along with the dial. The anti-skating was best just a hair over 2.0. Always cool to be able to dial just a little bit more perfromance out of a customer's table. He and his wife both commented on how good it sounded even through the little PSB speakers and NAD amp I have on the setup bench.
Do you move/adjust the counterweight while keeping the stylus on the scale? Or do you brace it when adjusting the counterweight and then put it back on the scale?

How can I determine if I have an Ekos SE with the anti-skating error?

Any experience or recommendations with the Hana ML on the Ekos SE?
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Hermann »

The weight is set with the arm fixed and then checked with the scale. First set to the specified value, measure and compensate the difference with the weight.

The EKOS/SE has no skating error, but a preload of 0.3, if I remember correctly. It is first set to the specified value to determine the correct one by ear.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Zee9 »

Hermann wrote: 2022-07-11 12:18 Update - Ekstatik

Trackingforce 11.07.2022x.JPG
New to this thread although some text messages with Thomas OK and he had already explained this method to me when I got a used Ekos SE/1.

My tonearm came at an unbelievable price but has an extra pull on the anti skate. Probably a service required.

Would I be correct in imagining that I should use the same settings from the sheet for an adikt when I’m using a AT-VM-95ML?

It does sound better when the dial is set to 1.75. On the scale it measures close to 1.8. My anti skate (due to the extra pull sounds best at just a mm above 0.
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