A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

I'd have to take a look at an Ekos 1 or 2 to see where it lands on that arm. However, on an Ekos SE it is designed so that the counterweight is very close to the bearing housing with a Kandid or similar weight cartridge installed. With the one I just tested above there is very little space between the counterweight and the bearing housing and a lot of the stub extending out the back. This could well be different with an earlier Ekos.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by markiteight »

ThomasOK wrote:I'd have to take a look at an Ekos 1 or 2 to see where it lands on that arm. However, on an Ekos SE it is designed so that the counterweight is very close to the bearing housing with a Kandid or similar weight cartridge installed. With the one I just tested above there is very little space between the counterweight and the bearing housing and a lot of the stub extending out the back. This could well be different with an earlier Ekos.
I just measured my Ekos 1 and the results are similar to ThomasOK's: ~2mm between the counterweight and bearing housing, and the stub protrudes exactly 1cm from behind the weight.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by beck »

markiteight wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:I'd have to take a look at an Ekos 1 or 2 to see where it lands on that arm. However, on an Ekos SE it is designed so that the counterweight is very close to the bearing housing with a Kandid or similar weight cartridge installed. With the one I just tested above there is very little space between the counterweight and the bearing housing and a lot of the stub extending out the back. This could well be different with an earlier Ekos.
I just measured my Ekos 1 and the results are similar to ThomasOK's: ~2mm between the counterweight and bearing housing, and the stub protrudes exactly 1cm from behind the weight.
Well, that is very different from mine. It must depend on the spring. Mine is of by a mile! It messures 1.63 when showing 1.24 on the dial. I guess that it will be individual to all arms depending on how the spring behaves getting more equal results with arms and springs that are more equal.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

A few more additions.

A brand new Ekos SE/1 installed on a customers' Klimax LP12 with broken in Kandid. Once again the best sounding tracking force, after careful leveling of the arm, was right on 1.75. Interestingly on this one the anti-skate was most musical at 1.68. Tested the TF with my scale and it was actually 1.82. Once again then adjusted counterweight to where it was most musical with the dial at the 1.75 setting and measured again - it was now 1.78. So my feeling is that there is a bit more music to be gained after leveling the arm and setting the dial to where it sounds best if you further adjust the counterweight to its most musical position. However, I once again found that similar amounts of change on the counterweight made more subtle differences than those of the dial - curious. So now I have an new arm setup technique.

These next two are just more for interest sake but don't fit the test as they aren't Linn arms. I installed an Adikt into a Naim Aro, which doesn't have dynamic tracking force. But I still tried starting at 1.5 and going up without measuring to see where I ended up. Well, first off I was at 1.9 grams! Then I noticed I hadn't readjusted the arm height from the previous cartridge by ear. So I got the height and the height screw torque dialed in and tried again. It was most musical at 1.64 grams. The other setup was a Rega RP6 with Exakt cartridge. Again 1.5 to 2.0 in .1 increments and then further fine tuning. It sounded best at 1.75. This didn't surprise me as have found the UK built Rega MMs to pretty much all sound best at 1.75. However it actually measured 1.7 even and sounded best with the counterweight kept there. So maybe this idea doesn't just apply to Linn dynamically balanced arms. Interesting!
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by lejonklou »

Thanks Thomas!

Very interesting. If we suppose it's not only Linn arms, why would the dynamic (spring loaded) pressure be optimal around 1.75 g? I'm trying to think about the interaction between the suspension of the cartridge and the dynamic suspension of the arm. And why past a certain point, the weight is better added by a shift of the static balance. No Eureka moment yet. But there's for sure something we haven't yet understood here.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Lego »

lejonklou wrote:Thank you Charlie!

You don't have a scale, do you?

I don't know why the balancing changes, but sometimes it does. It could also be due to static on the vinyl that skewed the previous calibration when you did it.
I've that balancing issue with my early ekos that never happened with Ittok Basik or LVX i sent it back to linn and they told me upgrading the bearings would solve that issue,LOL..I thought possibly the oil surrounding the bearings was changing consistency with temperature
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

A couple more combos to report on. Same testing methodology. First, Ittok LVII with low hours Akiva - most musical at a setting of 1.75 (not the 1.72 I have often found), anti-skating best at 1.8. Measured tracking force was 1.76 and moving the counterweight from that position did not improve the music. Second, Ekos II with Krystal - most musical at indicated 1.78 with anti-skating best at 2.05. Measured tracking force was 1.96! Again adjusted the counterweight position by ear for most musical sound and then found it measured 1.76. By the way, torque on the Krystal is .4Nm-1.

So my conclusion is that the dynamically balanced arms do sound most musical around 1.75, maybe minus or plus .5, regardless of what the tracking force actually ends up being. But also that if the counterweight is then adjusted by ear as well the tracking force will end up being very close to that on the dial and to that recommended for the cartridge. My experience is that adjusting the counterweight has less musical effect than adjusting the dial but it does provide an additional gain. So I am now using this setup technique on all my dynamically balanced arms. I also find it interesting that the Adikt seems better around 1.70. It makes me wonder if there isn't some interaction between the tracking force spring and the compliance of the suspension since the Adikt is much more compliant than the MCs.

I also don't see where I answered the question from Charlie about the tonearm drift but I believe the rubber decoupler in the counterweight can shift a little with time from settling.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for reporting Thomas!

Indeed it seems like the original theory was correct. I hope some guys at Linn working on the LP12 reads this and gets an ingenious idea. There are many ways of adding the vertical tracking force.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote:I also don't see where I answered the question from Charlie about the tonearm drift but I believe the rubber decoupler in the counterweight can shift a little with time from settling.
Thanks Tom!
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Charlie1 »

Lego wrote:
lejonklou wrote:Thank you Charlie!

You don't have a scale, do you?

I don't know why the balancing changes, but sometimes it does. It could also be due to static on the vinyl that skewed the previous calibration when you did it.
I've that balancing issue with my early ekos that never happened with Ittok Basik or LVX i sent it back to linn and they told me upgrading the bearings would solve that issue,LOL..I thought possibly the oil surrounding the bearings was changing consistency with temperature
Certainly hope that's not what happened.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by beck »

Moving this tread up I would like to say that it can produce great gains to experiment with the setup of the tonearm.
I have just tried it again and come up with an even better result. A record I had a slight problem with (not producing a satisfying groove, musical timing) now is “digging” it properly.
The rest of my collection is now sounding even better.

If this all sounds far fetched just wait till you start “clocking” your turntable platter mat! :-)
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Clocking, etc.

Post by Ron The Mon »

beck wrote: If this all sounds far fetched just wait till you start “clocking” your turntable platter mat! :-)
beck,
I mentioned this to Tom O'Keefe a few years back and he chuckled (in disagreement thinking I was over-thinking "clocking").

To properly "clock" your LP12 outer-platter, you must first synchronize your mat and record with the inner-platter to be sure the outer-platter is what is making the difference.

I had trouble clocking my outer-platter to the eighth until I used cut up Post it Notes to mark the LP and mat with the inner-platter. Now I can easily hear the differences clocking the outer-platter makes. Mine is dialed in to less than a sixty-fourth.

With that stated, I have found clocking the LP itself is more profound than the mat, though I can hear the felt mat clocked to the quarter. Past that, I'm not so sure. I enjoy watching and listening to you fellas at the playground. One day I may hop on the Merry-Go-Round with you guys and divulge my experiments.

I have read this thread with interest even though the arm on my LP12 doesn't match the criteria.

It amazes me how good my Linn LV X is. It is far better than most tonearms regardless of price. What would a statically balanced EKOS SE sound like with the dial, spring, and bearing removed?

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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by beck »

Ron The Mon wrote:
beck wrote: If this all sounds far fetched just wait till you start “clocking” your turntable platter mat! :-)
beck,
I mentioned this to Tom O'Keefe a few years back and he chuckled (in disagreement thinking I was over-thinking "clocking").

..... .. .I have found clocking the LP itself is more profound than the mat, though I can hear the felt mat clocked to the quarter. Past that, I'm not so sure. I enjoy watching and listening to you fellas at the playground. One day I may hop on the Merry-Go-Round with you guys and divulge my experiments.........



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Ha, the LP itself was the next thing I was going to mention. :-) LPs are not totally flat as we all know so as you have mentioned it must be even more prone to “clocking”. Then we would have to mark each record individually to get the best result!

Hop onboard any time. The more the merrier and we do actually learn a thing or two.


Beck: always in doubt and always learning! :-)
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Re: Clocking, etc.

Post by lejonklou »

Ron The Mon wrote:
beck wrote: If this all sounds far fetched just wait till you start “clocking” your turntable platter mat! :-)
beck,
I mentioned this to Tom O'Keefe a few years back and he chuckled (in disagreement thinking I was over-thinking "clocking").

To properly "clock" your LP12 outer-platter, you must first synchronize your mat and record with the inner-platter to be sure the outer-platter is what is making the difference.

I had trouble clocking my outer-platter to the eighth until I used cut up Post it Notes to mark the LP and mat with the inner-platter. Now I can easily hear the differences clocking the outer-platter makes. Mine is dialed in to less than a sixty-fourth.

With that stated, I have found clocking the LP itself is more profound than the mat, though I can hear the felt mat clocked to the quarter. Past that, I'm not so sure. I enjoy watching and listening to you fellas at the playground. One day I may hop on the Merry-Go-Round with you guys and divulge my experiments.

I have read this thread with interest even though the arm on my LP12 doesn't match the criteria.

It amazes me how good my Linn LV X is. It is far better than most tonearms regardless of price. What would a statically balanced EKOS SE sound like with the dial, spring, and bearing removed?

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Ron, thanks for this tip!

I haven't yet tried it, but I will. Sounds like it could make the clocking of the outer platter more precise.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Charlie1 »

I never properly understood this before, but had a good read through again and finally got it.

So, Colin said tracking force was best at 1.65g. I took a photo whilst in the store and the anti-skate was about 1.9. Bear in mind I have the old Ekos. The Krystal was measuring about 1.68g, with antiskate set to zero.

Went through the process and confirmed the arm is definitely best at 1.65, as Colin said, having tried 1.625 and 1.675, plus various other steps in 0.1 increments. I prefer the anti-skate at 1.8 though, but this is only a fraction better than 1.9. I went in 0.05 steps.

I then tweaked the actual counterweight. I found that harder than the tracking force dial. I’ve remeasured and the weight is now 1.76g, with antiskate set to zero. It’s a cheap gauge though, but still, better than before.

Having to play very quietly now but it’s all sounding v good.

Thanks all, particularly Fredrik and Thomas for their input in this thread.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by jethanger »

Hi,

I'm a refugee from the Linn Forums so late to this one.Recently retired I now have time to experiment. So LP12, Circus, Tramp2, Hercules, Ittok, Dynavector DV20XL. I find that the 1.7 / 1.7 gives a better soundstage and more "air", will stick with this for the time being, was using 1.9/1.9 previously.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Hermann »

Thank you to all contributors to share their experience.

I'm new owner of EKOS/SE and Kandid and find this information very usefull. Just trying to get the right VTF and Scating. Here are my currend settings:

Ekos SE, Kandid, 1.75, 1.75, [1.91]

I use this because of ThomasOKs recommendation but do struggle with scating. Its not as easy as with the EKOS II/Troika. When skating is turned from 1.75 to 2.00, there is hardly a change to hear in terms of TuneDem. Do not know the reason, because with the EKOS II/Troika that was very easy.

Recommendations are very welcome.

However, I suspect that the LP12c is not set correctly. When the dealer left, the swinging was more lateral than up and down. The scating was not adjusted and the lift was too high. I've tried the set-up by myself after more than 20 years and guess came to a reasonable result. But there is an uncertainty factor.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Tendaberry »

Hermann wrote: 2018-11-19 10:50However, I suspect that the LP12c is not set correctly. When the dealer left, the swinging was more lateral than up and down. The scating was not adjusted and the lift was too high. I've tried the set-up by myself after more than 20 years and guess came to a reasonable result. But there is an uncertainty factor.
Ouch! Which dealer is this??
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

There haven't been any updates up here for a while but I have been continuing to test this and the results are pretty consistent. So I thought I would do a final post for me (unless something changes) enumerating my results. Some of these are probably repeats of earlier posts but this is what I have in my notes, which I mostly didn't date, so no particular order.

The abbreviations are ITF - Indicated Tracking Force, MTF - Measured TF, BTF - Best sounding TF, AS - Anti-Skating.

Combination ITF MTF BTF AS

Ekos 1/Akiva 1.72 1.88 1.73 2.10
Ekos SE/Kandid 1.75 1.89 1.75 2.02
Ekos SE/Kandid 1.75 1.93 1.75 1.98
Ekos 2/DV10x5II 2.07 2.30 2.20 2.45
Ekos 2/Krystal 1.78 1.96 1.76 2.05
Ekos 1/Krystal 1.75 1.88 1.74 2.10
Ekos SE/1/Kandid 1.75 1.82 1.78 1.68
Ekos 1/Adikt 2 1.70 1.85 1.76
Ittok LVII/Akiva 1.75 1.76 1.76 1.80
Ekos 1/Troika reb 1.70 1.81 1.70 1.95
Ekos SE/1/Adikt 1.71 1.86 1.72 1.74
Ittok LVII/Adikt 1.70 1.63 1.66 1.70
Ekos 1/Kandid 1.74 1.91 1.74 1.85
Ittok LVII/Adikt 1.72 1.76 1.76 1.75
Ekos SE/Kandid 1.75 1.96 1.75
Ekos 1/Krystal 1.72 1.86 1.76
Ittok LVII/Krystal 1.77 1.82 1.82 1.90
Ekos SE/1/Kandid 1.78 1.83 1.79 1.82
Ittok LVII/Karma 1.67 1.68 1.68
Ekos 2/Adikt 1.75 1.84 1.76 2.05
Ekos SE/1/Kandid 1.78 1.92 1.77 1.82

As can be seen, pretty much all arms sound best with an indicated tracking force pretty close to the recommended forces but there is a strong tendency for the actual forces on any of the Ekos arms to be higher, often a bit above a tenth of a gram high, although a couple of SE/1s are closer so they may have tightened it up a bit. The anti-skating on Ekos arms also tends to need to be about .3 gram higher than marked for best sound, except for SE/1s. On the other hand Ittoks are generally pretty close to dead nuts on for both tracking force and anti-skating. Finally, all the Ekos arms sound most musical with the counterweight adjusted to match the actual tracking force pretty close to the indicated tracking force that sounds best. There are a few where I failed to note down the anti-skating force I ended up with. Hopefully this information will be helpful.

Sorry this is ending up hard to read but all the spaces I painstakingly put in to make these be in nice columns appear to be removed when it posts.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Hermann »

I've allowed myself to make the list a bit different. Hope that's ok.

My values are now corrected
1.75, 1.98, 1.59, 1.76

The abbreviations are ITF - Indicated Tracking Force, MTF - Measured TF, BTF - Best sounding TF, AS - Anti-Skating.
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Last edited by Hermann on 2019-03-26 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

Thanks. That's more like what I hoped it would look like. Maybe add the description of the abbreviations above the chart.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Defender »

Interesting read as I am starting to get more into analogue too.

Does someone also have some values available for the Arkiv B and Ekos 2?

Sorry for a newbe question I know its better to torque the cartridge with the arm off the LP12 to not hurt the bearings - but is it save to change the position of the arm weight when the arm is still on the armboard?

I am asking because the weight I have and the rubber needs a high screwing type force to get it moving and I dont want to harm the bearings.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by ThomasOK »

I haven't done an Arkiv B in a while but the settings should be pretty much the same as an Akiva. There shouldn't be a problem adjusting the counterweight with the arm in place. The rubber on some is tighter than on others but it should still be safe. For one thing you have a much shorter lever to the bearings so the force isn't multiplied as much.
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Re: A tracking weight experiment for LP12 owners

Post by Defender »

thank you - that makes me feel better
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Torque=Twisting Force

Post by Ron The Mon »

ThomasOK wrote: 2019-11-26 20:12 There shouldn't be a problem adjusting the counterweight with the arm in place. The rubber on some is tighter than on others but it should still be safe. For one thing you have a much shorter lever to the bearings so the force isn't multiplied as much.
Tom,
You told me when you drove out to Colorado and back with your LP12/Ekos SE, you left the counterweight on there and back (in a minivan I believe). You brought this up to me because I removed my tonearm counterweight just for my short ride in to Overture Audio, with my LP12 on a cushy seat in my smooth riding Lexus. You told me you thought it would do more damage to remove and install a counterweight than any travel vibration might do.

You and I know what Defender is talking about; there are Ittoks and Ekos' which take a substantial amount of force to move, remove, or install the counterweight. Two weeks ago, I mounted an Audio Technica VM95EN cartridge to an acquaintances LP12/Ittok. He was stunned I was changing the cartridge with the Ittok still on the LP12. I measured the height of his previous cartridge and decided since their heights almost identical, there was no reason to remove the arm from the deck.

Just for fun, I dug up an old torque wrench and socket and taped it to the Ittok counterweight. It took almost 2 ft/lbs of torque to rotate it. This didn't include pushing or pulling, just rotating. I have been using less force than that torquing the cartridge mounting screws (.2 Nm -4). Leverage multiplication should have little to do with it as you must grasp the Ittok/Ekos arm tube with your left hand while twisting on or off a counterweight with your right hand. You also must clutch a cartridge while tightening the headshell screws as well.

I asked this question on another thread here; does anyone have any demonstrable evidence torquing a phono cartridge on an Ittok or Ekos damaged it (and add to that moving the counterweight)?

I had this discussion many years ago with Roy Gandy of Rega about the subject. He claimed the Rega RB300 uses the same exact bearings as an Ittok and no twisting force will hurt those bearings. To be fair, the Rega arm has the bearings frame mounted on each side of the arm whilst the Ittok is mounted on the left side only on a spindle. As long as the spindle is as strong as the bearings, there shouldn't be a problem. I have always erred on the side of caution but haven't ever read or heard of an RB300 or Ittok/Ekos being damaged from a counterweight or cartridge install. Rega's own cartridge torque wrench is set at a high value; I believe .3 Nm.

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