It is not the drivers that become harsh, crossover capacitors tend to loose their capacitance value as time goes on. Replacing them with similar ones solves the problem.hcl wrote:I have no deeper knowledge, but it seems to me that old speaker units, especially trebles seem to becomes rather harch after some (ten or so) years..Music Lover wrote:Do they?hcl wrote: Speaker units degrades slowly by time and usage.
In what way...please elaborate.
Speakers
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vicdiaz
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Re: Speakers
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I want SLAM! :DMusic Lover wrote:Better in what way?Azazello wrote:Yes, but the question is if a 2250 + Espek or maybee Isobarik would be better?Music Lover wrote:So if you spend 1k on ADM, you have 1k£ for the sub.
Sizmik 12" or two 10" maybe? But I have no idea of the price level of these ones.
As you requested SLAM that was the criteria recommending the systems.
Re: Speakers
Yes, the drivers changes by time. The filter components also changes, but should do so less fast. There where a definitive improvement when replacing with new ones (same type).vicdiaz wrote:It is not the drivers that become harsh, crossover capacitors tend to loose their capacitance value as time goes on. Replacing them with similar ones solves the problem.hcl wrote:I have no deeper knowledge, but it seems to me that old speaker units, especially trebles seem to becomes rather harch after some (ten or so) years..Music Lover wrote: Do they?
In what way...please elaborate.
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Music Lover
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Ok then easy, skip the idea on anything else than BIG floorstanders, Isobarik/Keltik if you look at Linn speakers.Azazello wrote:I want SLAM! :DMusic Lover wrote:Better in what way?Azazello wrote: Yes, but the question is if a 2250 + Espek or maybee Isobarik would be better?
As you requested SLAM that was the criteria recommending the systems.
It's all about musical understanding!
Hi everyone! Nice to see the ideas flourish even in the middle of the summer (normally no prime time for HiFi).
Last time I changed tweeters in a pair of late Isobariks, I managed to get hold of 3 original and unused units from Linn. At that time they still had them in their spare parts list, but the truth was that the stock ran out long ago. Luckily a nice chap managed to find me 3 pieces (I asked for 4), so I checked all four units in the Isobariks. It turned out that 2 of them - both in the same speaker - were quite "scratchy" and 2 sounded as good as the unused ones. So the repair could be carried out successfully.
The owner admitted that it was probably after a party that one speaker started sounding worse than the other.
It is, however, quite possible that also the unused treble units had dried, corroded or in some other way changed their character a bit since they were manufactured many years ago. This deterioration probably depends a lot on what materials the units are made of.
Regarding passive crossovers, it is primarily the electrolytic capacitors that change their value and performance with time. All other components age with minimal deterioration.
I have changed a fair number of tweeters and in my experience many of the early Linn ones (used in Isobarik/Sara/Kan) don't perform properly today. My impression is that this is due to overload, not old age. An example that indicates this:hcl wrote:A worn treble just scratches while an OK one should sound tuneful. Maybe Fredrik can elaborate on his some more!?
Last time I changed tweeters in a pair of late Isobariks, I managed to get hold of 3 original and unused units from Linn. At that time they still had them in their spare parts list, but the truth was that the stock ran out long ago. Luckily a nice chap managed to find me 3 pieces (I asked for 4), so I checked all four units in the Isobariks. It turned out that 2 of them - both in the same speaker - were quite "scratchy" and 2 sounded as good as the unused ones. So the repair could be carried out successfully.
The owner admitted that it was probably after a party that one speaker started sounding worse than the other.
It is, however, quite possible that also the unused treble units had dried, corroded or in some other way changed their character a bit since they were manufactured many years ago. This deterioration probably depends a lot on what materials the units are made of.
Regarding passive crossovers, it is primarily the electrolytic capacitors that change their value and performance with time. All other components age with minimal deterioration.
I agree. The reason is that a subwoofer reproduces only very low frequencies and the SLAM is found higher up in the bass region.Broccoli wrote:Subs can in my experience not compete with big floorstanders when it comes to SLAM. Don't ask me why though.
So a good sub can give you deep, clean and strong bass that can rattle your sofa if it's loud enough. But it's the bass unit(s) that play above the subwoofer that delivers the SLAM that punches your stomach.
So, Azazello, not even 10 subwoofers will give you SLAM.
Aha! That's why...lejonklou wrote:I agree. The reason is that a subwoofer reproduces only very low frequencies and the SLAM is found higher up in the bass region.
So, Azazello, not even 10 subwoofers will give you SLAM.
And there are no (good) Subwoofers that can play a bit higher? What about the AVI sub that is developed for the ADM-9? Is it impossible to build a sub that plays theese frequencies? Or is it just that they are mainly used in home cinema applications?
Sorry about going on and on about this, but I feel that I need to settle this question once and for all.
I figured it was time I weighed in on this subject seeing as I do own some speakers with at least a touch of SLAM - ATC 100As upstairs and Isobariks downstairs.
I agree that you are unlikely to get the SLAM you want out of a mini-monitor/subwoofer setup for the same reasons Fredrik states. The real problem is with the ability to move air. In a small box speaker like the ADM9 or Katan you are using a small driver, typically 4" to 6" for midrange and bass. These same drivers are often used as midrange drivers in larger speakers - the Katan driver in the Espek, the original Kan driver in the Isobarik. While a combination of good design and some compromise in efficiency can allow some decent bass to come out of such designs there are limitations in how deep and how much bass power they can deliver.
When you connect a subwoofer, especially if you use one of my favorite REL subs and hook it up as recommended, the sub is only putting out the lowest frequencies to fill in the range the main speaker cannot reproduce. The small speaker is still running full range and still has the limitation of how much air it can move.
When you look at a large 3 way speaker like the Isobarik or ATC 100 you have the bass driver handling the range up to somewhere between 250Hz and 400Hz with the midrange driver taking over above that. Therefore the entire bass/midbass range is being delivered by a large, high-excursion cone (9" x 12" oval in the Isobarik or 12.4" round in the ATC 100) that can move a LOT of air. The midrange driver is only handling from 250Hz + on up so it now has a much easier job as well which can lead to a more detailed, less distorted and more tuneful speaker.
Adding a subwoofer in the normal manner will not give anywhere near the same results as you generally have to cross over the sub below around 120Hz or so (and for good sound should usually cross it over below 50Hz). To get a subwoofer/satellite system to work like a big three way would require custom crossovers that let the sub run up to 250Hz or above. You would also need a crossover for the small speakers at that same chosen frequency to properly blend both speakers and to reduce the work the small speaker has to do. It would require two subwoofers as bass is only truly omnidirectional below about 40Hz so the higher crossover would cause all the bass to appear to be coming from the position of the subwoofer (now really a woofer). Also the subwoofer would have to be redesigned to handle the wider range as the drivers, amps and even the cabinets on subwoofers are optimized for the range under about 100Hz - pushing them to 250 or 380Hz would change everything. And, of course, positioning of the bass cabinets compared to the small speakers would become even more critical to keep the phase relationships proper for good sound. So in essence you would really be designing a 2 box, three way speaker system - a design which perusal of typical Hi-Fi magazines will show is quite popular with a number of speaker designers - especially high-end US companies. Obviously all this would not be a trivial or inexpensive endeavor.
To touch on a couple of earlier questions, I find that speakers that use quality drivers such as Isobariks, Keltiks, ATCs and many others really don't have much in the way of problems with aging - especially when it is an active speaker so that you don't have to worry as much about crossover components. I have no experience of the tweeters in the Isobariks degrading unless they have been overdriven. But the Isobarik tweeters can be replaced with the Espek/Ninka tweeter and in my opinion it is a significant improvement. (I think that Fredrik might even work out a passive crossover mod to make up for the slight efficiency differrence.) The bass and midrange drivers also seem to last virtually forever without deterioration if not overdriven - mine are 20 years old this year and still going strong. While the bass and midrange drivers are no longer available as replacements you can always pick up a pair of original Kans as a source for two midranges and two tweeters should your five year old decide to poke a pencil through your midrange cone (they do seem to really like pushing those dust caps in, and they are just at the right height!).
As to the used ATCs the main thing to be aware of there is that they are made in both passive and active versions. I feel that active is the way to go and is quite a bargain considering the low additional cost over the passive ones - it is only an additional approximately $4800US per pair for active on new units. Also ATC is not big on spikes and many come without stands so you might need to figure some additional money for good stands. If you decide to go this way I can give you some sources there.
Good luck.
I agree that you are unlikely to get the SLAM you want out of a mini-monitor/subwoofer setup for the same reasons Fredrik states. The real problem is with the ability to move air. In a small box speaker like the ADM9 or Katan you are using a small driver, typically 4" to 6" for midrange and bass. These same drivers are often used as midrange drivers in larger speakers - the Katan driver in the Espek, the original Kan driver in the Isobarik. While a combination of good design and some compromise in efficiency can allow some decent bass to come out of such designs there are limitations in how deep and how much bass power they can deliver.
When you connect a subwoofer, especially if you use one of my favorite REL subs and hook it up as recommended, the sub is only putting out the lowest frequencies to fill in the range the main speaker cannot reproduce. The small speaker is still running full range and still has the limitation of how much air it can move.
When you look at a large 3 way speaker like the Isobarik or ATC 100 you have the bass driver handling the range up to somewhere between 250Hz and 400Hz with the midrange driver taking over above that. Therefore the entire bass/midbass range is being delivered by a large, high-excursion cone (9" x 12" oval in the Isobarik or 12.4" round in the ATC 100) that can move a LOT of air. The midrange driver is only handling from 250Hz + on up so it now has a much easier job as well which can lead to a more detailed, less distorted and more tuneful speaker.
Adding a subwoofer in the normal manner will not give anywhere near the same results as you generally have to cross over the sub below around 120Hz or so (and for good sound should usually cross it over below 50Hz). To get a subwoofer/satellite system to work like a big three way would require custom crossovers that let the sub run up to 250Hz or above. You would also need a crossover for the small speakers at that same chosen frequency to properly blend both speakers and to reduce the work the small speaker has to do. It would require two subwoofers as bass is only truly omnidirectional below about 40Hz so the higher crossover would cause all the bass to appear to be coming from the position of the subwoofer (now really a woofer). Also the subwoofer would have to be redesigned to handle the wider range as the drivers, amps and even the cabinets on subwoofers are optimized for the range under about 100Hz - pushing them to 250 or 380Hz would change everything. And, of course, positioning of the bass cabinets compared to the small speakers would become even more critical to keep the phase relationships proper for good sound. So in essence you would really be designing a 2 box, three way speaker system - a design which perusal of typical Hi-Fi magazines will show is quite popular with a number of speaker designers - especially high-end US companies. Obviously all this would not be a trivial or inexpensive endeavor.
To touch on a couple of earlier questions, I find that speakers that use quality drivers such as Isobariks, Keltiks, ATCs and many others really don't have much in the way of problems with aging - especially when it is an active speaker so that you don't have to worry as much about crossover components. I have no experience of the tweeters in the Isobariks degrading unless they have been overdriven. But the Isobarik tweeters can be replaced with the Espek/Ninka tweeter and in my opinion it is a significant improvement. (I think that Fredrik might even work out a passive crossover mod to make up for the slight efficiency differrence.) The bass and midrange drivers also seem to last virtually forever without deterioration if not overdriven - mine are 20 years old this year and still going strong. While the bass and midrange drivers are no longer available as replacements you can always pick up a pair of original Kans as a source for two midranges and two tweeters should your five year old decide to poke a pencil through your midrange cone (they do seem to really like pushing those dust caps in, and they are just at the right height!).
As to the used ATCs the main thing to be aware of there is that they are made in both passive and active versions. I feel that active is the way to go and is quite a bargain considering the low additional cost over the passive ones - it is only an additional approximately $4800US per pair for active on new units. Also ATC is not big on spikes and many come without stands so you might need to figure some additional money for good stands. If you decide to go this way I can give you some sources there.
Good luck.
Thank you very much for sorting this out Thomas! :)
I seems to me that my options are Isobarik (passive with someting like 2250 or active with someting less expensive) or ATC SCM100A/150A(50A?). Keltik is of course another option, but if ATC can give me SLAM and musicality on a level above Akurate for the same or just a little bit more money the Keltik...
I seems to me that my options are Isobarik (passive with someting like 2250 or active with someting less expensive) or ATC SCM100A/150A(50A?). Keltik is of course another option, but if ATC can give me SLAM and musicality on a level above Akurate for the same or just a little bit more money the Keltik...
Azazello wrote:Thank you very much for sorting this out Thomas! :)
I seems to me that my options are Isobarik (passive with someting like 2250 or active with someting less expensive) or ATC SCM100A/150A(50A?). Keltik is of course another option, but if ATC can give me SLAM and musicality on a level above Akurate for the same or just a little bit more money than Keltik...
I'm not sure why you quoted your own post without any additional comment unless it was just to get my attention. If so it worked. :)Azazello wrote:Thank you very much for sorting this out Thomas! :)
I seems to me that my options are Isobarik (passive with someting like 2250 or active with someting less expensive) or ATC SCM100A/150A(50A?). Keltik is of course another option, but if ATC can give me SLAM and musicality on a level above Akurate for the same or just a little bit more money the Keltik...
Isobariks will definitely run well from a 2250 (and even better from 3 but the Aktiv crossovers are very hard to come by). I have had the Akurate 242s at home to try and also a pair of Keltiks. While I felt the Keltik was a top to bottom improvement over the Aktiv Isobariks when I heard them I did not feel it was such a big improvement that I should go through the extra hassle and expense to upgrade to them at the time. The 242s (an early pair) definitely were more tuneful than the Isobariks but they lacked the low end extension and power of the Isobariks and didn't seem as balanced. I made the decision to buy the ATCs after doing a direct comparison with the 242s using the same sources and preamp. I found the ATC 100s were more tuneful than the 242s by a considerable margin - their amazing midrange driver really letting you hear what is going on musically. And they were much more balanced and extended in the bass with the quality of the bass exceeding that which I heard form the Isobariks and Keltiks and the extension in at least the same league. Compared to the 242s in the bass there was no comparison - the ATCs were vastly better.
If you do end up with some ATCs make sure you tighten down the drivers and the baffle (or better have Fredrik do it with the torque screwdriver, if possible). ATC does not tighten them properly and getting it right makes quite a difference. I have all the torque specs if needed although they can vary a bit from one screwdriver to the next so fine tuning by ear is the best bet.
:oops: I don't even know when or how it happened... But I'm glad that it worked :)ThomasOK wrote:I'm not sure why you quoted your own post without any additional comment unless it was just to get my attention. If so it worked. :)
Last edited by Azazello on 2008-07-24 22:08, edited 1 time in total.
So I think I've got my plan straight now:
1: Get a better job and a haircut.
2: Buy a 2250
3: Buy a pair of Isobarik.
4: Get an even better job.
5: Upgrade LP12 to full SE spec. (with Udevalla), buy KK and ATC SCM100/150/200/300a.
Thank you very much everybody, (especially Thomas and Music Lover) for helping me sorting this out. :D
1: Get a better job and a haircut.
2: Buy a 2250
3: Buy a pair of Isobarik.
4: Get an even better job.
5: Upgrade LP12 to full SE spec. (with Udevalla), buy KK and ATC SCM100/150/200/300a.
Thank you very much everybody, (especially Thomas and Music Lover) for helping me sorting this out. :D
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monkeydevil
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Music Lover
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Well, I kind of messed up that list a bit :? but I did get a haircut the other week. :D
The deal on the Isobariks is not closed yet, but I think it's going to work out fine. As ML said, they are not very expensive 8)
I will send my Timpano to UK for a trade against a 2250 (or possibly a 2100, what do you think would be best?) as soon as I got the replacement Pre.
The deal on the Isobariks is not closed yet, but I think it's going to work out fine. As ML said, they are not very expensive 8)
I will send my Timpano to UK for a trade against a 2250 (or possibly a 2100, what do you think would be best?) as soon as I got the replacement Pre.
Yes, even though they no doubt would be better I really feel that I want a full range system now. Also I'm not too fond of the idea of an internal volume, I want to have the opportunity of upgrading my preamp. But I still think it would be interesting to go and listen to them!monkeydevil wrote:Sweet! So you skipped the idea of ADM:s?
Did you ever get the chance to listen to them by the way?
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Music Lover
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What model is the new pre?Azazello wrote:I will send my Timpano to UK for a trade against a 2250 (or possibly a 2100, what do you think would be best?) as soon as I got the replacement Pre.
2100 is more musical but as I assume you going to use it with Isobarik...I'm not sure whats best. They like power.
If you consider going active, get 2100. Running passive, hmmm I pass on that one.
It's all about musical understanding!
Just a couple of quick notes. I would not recommend the 2100 or a 5125 for driving the Isobariks - they need a fair bit of current and these two amplifiers are not really up to it. I was once told that the 5125 was not even a good match for Aktiv Keltiks because of their need for current - the Isobariks are similar in this. I would say that the best bets are the Klout, 2250 and C2200. The LK280/Spark I use on the Isobariks in my AV system work quite well too but you rarely see them used and they tend to go for about as much as the Klout, which is superior. Considering typical used prices I'd say the 2250 is the best bang for the buck (best sound per pound?) unless you can get a really great deal on the 2200.
On another subject, you can just set the volume control on the ADM9s (and upcoming 9.1s) to max and use them with your choice of preamp. It works quite well this way.
On another subject, you can just set the volume control on the ADM9s (and upcoming 9.1s) to max and use them with your choice of preamp. It works quite well this way.