Why this forum makes sense!

[beck]

Musicians are all into the timing of the music making it tight and exiting to listen to at the same time. Imagine a record being made and the artist sitting at the mixing desk listening to the recorded music thinking it sounds tight and precise but a bit boring. Would he just go on like nothing had happened. No way.
Imagine him listening to the recorded music thinking:" I do not understand this chord being played. It sounds like the bass is weirdly out of tune with the rest of the music." Would he go on like nothing had happened No way.
That is why this forum makes sense!

[donuk]

Interesting points Beck
But being a musician is a liability in the tune dem fraternity.
I have had long discussions in past threads on this and other forums as I suffer from the perceived disadvantage of being a professional musician myself of many years' standing.
Even the much respected Chris Fuller (Lejonklou agent and LP12 Guru) told me the other day that in his experience musicians tolerated amazingly poor sounding hifi - although did concede that my system sounded superb, therefore I was an exception. (Maybe he was implying I am not musical).
So don't expect a musician - according to popular belief in hifi circles to be able to recognise a poor recording of his work.
On a personal note - I still do not consciously use the tune dem method when evaluating sound. What I have learned over the years from friends, dealers, hifi exhibitions and this forum is what sort of sound pleases tunedem enthusiasts.
I find myself listening to a piece of music on the system saying something like "this is great. I can hear how each instrument is contributing to the overall very musical presentation. I can hear how each instrument's notes start and finish. I can hear individual phraseology to each riff and theme. I can hear the pitch of the bass notes, and the overall presentation is not bright and tizzy nor boomy. For me it is like sitting among the instruments." Then I add, if a friend is present, "I think the tunedem boys would approve of this."

So Beck, as I said, don't trust musicians.......
Donuk, slightly tongue in cheek, sunny downtown York
PS sort of to prove the point, I have recently changed my Spendor A6s for some Totem Mark 1 Signatures - which although smaller, are to my ears far more likely to receive approval from a devout tunedemmer. Anyone know the Totems??

[beck]

Great to hear from you donuk! I do like when opinions cross and I think it has all to do with what we expect from our hifi. You discribed very well what you like. I just do not get that some recordings should sound boring when that would not be what the musicians playing would want from it.
We could try and change the word musician to producer.

By the way: My silly treads and comments are partly your fault as you made me stay on this forum a bit longer some time ago! :-)

[hcl]

It seems musicians listen for different things when listening to recordings, just as ordinary people do and especially when listening to their own music. Maybe it has something to do with how they look at their own work? Obviously musicians have a more intimate and insightful view on music in general and when listening to other musicians recordings they surely have a more complete and correct way of filling in the blanks because they know how the music being played should be played and sound. Obviously they are in a much better position to spot flaws also, but I think this applies more to technical flaws, parts that are out of tune, intonation or bad timing etc.

When listening to their own music it is probably a lot worse (in an informative sense) and very different from non musicians listening to their music. When they listen to their own recording they KNOW what is being played and consequently can fill in ALL information gaps (and other reproduction flaws) there is, so what they hear will most likely sound very different in their head than what the rest of us hear. It is of course very much dependent on what music they do, how they do it and hugely deviating between individuals. Obviously musicians will spot musical flaws, in the recording as well as in the monitoring reproduction (of the recording), but the actual message is probably more difficult to evaluate correctly when You already know what is being communicated. Not all people, musicians or ordinary listeners fills in all the gaps automatically. I guess most of us do, but to a differing extent.

I think all of the above makes a good case for why musicians need a producer and a mix engineer to get the recording down right (both technically and musically) and finally a mastering engineer (without insight to all separate components polluting the judgement of the whole piece as a whole).

It is very difficult to un-hear information. Once heard it is so easy to fill in the missing parts.

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I think this forum makes sense because people here are focusing on getting the gear that best reproduce music in a way that makes the music make sense.

On many other forums it seems people focus on so many other aspects of music reproduction that the core of the music gets marginalised in favour of aspects that are more easily described in words or with technical parameters.

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Great to hear from you donuk! I do like when opinions cross and I think it has all to do with what we expect from our hifi. You discribed very well what you like. I just do not get that some recordings should sound boring when that would not be what the musicians playing would want from it.
We could try and change the word musician with producer!

By the way: My silly treads and comments are partly your fault as you made me stay on this forum a bit longer some time ago! :-)

[ThomasOK]

My ex-wife was a musician who mostly played piano and recorder. She spent several years as a piano teacher as well. What I found was that many musicians have little interest in high fidelity equipment. Why? Because even the best of it does not approach the sound of live music. So they don't see the point. Also they generally, as noted above, have the ability to listen through even poor equipment and hear what is supposed to be going on. Considering this it comes as little surprise that musical celebrities have often endorsed really poor sounding equipment in the past (and continue to do so re: Beats!).

However, I once had a quite interesting discussion with her on the subject. She asked me why I had such an expensive Hi-Fi. (Note: this was an LP12/Ittok/Asak, Naim 32, HiCap, 250 and Isobariks.) I was playing a piece of piano music at the time she asked this. I said that this level of system was of high enough musical quality that if you knew your piano brands you could tell which piano he was playing. Her reply was "He's playing a Baldwin." To which I replied "How many other systems have you heard that would allow you to hear that?" Her answer was none. Rarely have I had my point so easily made for me.

So I don't think it is so much that they can't hear the differences it is just that they don't generally listen that way. But there are people who are both musicians and lovers of reproduced music, and I believe they respond quite well to systems that are truly musical such as those most often discussed on here.

[donuk]

Really interesting thread guys, which is relevant to us all.
Perhaps helps to explain why it is best to listen to an unfamiliar piece of music while testing a system.

donuk sunny downtown York (really sunny, blue sky - been a wonderful three months here.)

[beck]

Great comments.

During a long period of trial and error I have discovered that my system can perform in many different kind of ways from outspoken and uncontrolled to very precise and a bit boring just by making small changes to my setup. And just in between these two I can find a spot where it all make sense to me as a music lover and musician. It does not prove anything other than I can find what I have been looking for.
I had actually given up on this thinking it would never be possible but now I am there. I just pick any record be it analog, digital, remastered or first pressing and the music makes sense to me. What a blessing.

[Charlie1]

Enjoying this thread.

Yeah, for me, HiFi's greatest bebefit is making music accessible/listenable in the first place. I guess we are all different as to where that boundary lies and it also seems to vary between recording methods/eras.

[lejonklou]

Yeah, for me, HiFi's greatest bebefit is making music accessible/listenable in the first place.

I agree so much with this.

I am probably terribly spoiled in some way, but with the vast majority of HiFi systems, I just want to
1) Turn the volume down, or up, but it still doesn't satisfy,
2) Shut it off or leave the room, because I'd rather talk, walk, think, write or read without the music.

I also quite often hear music that sounds like something I should like, but for some reason it leaves me cold. Either it appears to not be played well enough, the attitude or the voice feels wrong, or I just don't manage to connect to it emotionally for unknown reasons.

When I listen to a great system, everything changes. I feel like I can understand any music. My favourites gives me waves of emotions that are beyond my control. I just want to hear them again and again. Music that I feel I shouldn't like suddenly makes sense and I think "This isn't my thing but right now it's kind of irresistible". And I understand why others love it.

And occasionally I find that an artist or an album I had previously struggled with presents itself from a different angle. I get it! And I love it. Those are such precious moments.

Over the years I have also found that this particular quality of a HiFi system - that it allows me to connect to the deep secrets of the music - has almost no correlation to how my ears think the system sounds. The analytical quantities that audiophiles obsess with are pointless. The thrill is mostly hidden in indirect qualities that need to be felt.

[beck]

Over the years I have also found that this particular quality of a HiFi system - that it allows me to connect to the deep secrets of the music - has almost no correlation to how my ears think the system sounds. The analytical quantities that audiophiles obsess with are pointless. The thrill is mostly hidden in indirect qualities that need to be felt.

+1

[Ozzzy189]

When I listen to a great system, everything changes. I feel like I can understand any music. My favourites gives me waves of emotions that are beyond my control. I just want to hear them again and again. Music that I feel I shouldn't like suddenly makes sense and I think "This isn't my thing but right now it's kind of irresistible". And I understand why others love it.


Freddie nails it. This is exactly what I discovered at don's recently when we met up with Chris. Good times.

[u252agz]

When I listen to a great system, everything changes. I feel like I can understand any music. My favourites gives me waves of emotions that are beyond my control. I just want to hear them again and again. Music that I feel I shouldn't like suddenly makes sense and I think "This isn't my thing but right now it's kind of irresistible". And I understand why others love it.

Although neither my hi fi system nor my ears are anywhere near as well tuned as Fredriks, or others on this Forum - I agree with the above.

In addition I find:

1 I need to have a fix of whatever it is I am currently listening to, every day- especially before retiring to bed.

2 Music from these systems draw you in from adjacent rooms and compell you to just listen.

3 Any volume sounds great

4 It is difficult to do anything else whilst listening

5 Interruptions whilst listening are not as welcome as they should be.

[matthias]

When I listen to a great system, everything changes. I feel like I can understand any music. My favourites gives me waves of emotions that are beyond my control. I just want to hear them again and again. Music that I feel I shouldn't like suddenly makes sense and I think "This isn't my thing but right now it's kind of irresistible". And I understand why others love it.
And occasionally I find that an artist or an album I had previously struggled with presents itself from a different angle. I get it! And I love it. Those are such precious moments.
Over the years I have also found that this particular quality of a HiFi system - that it allows me to connect to the deep secrets of the music - has almost no correlation to how my ears think the system sounds. The analytical quantities that audiophiles obsess with are pointless. The thrill is mostly hidden in indirect qualities that need to be felt.

+1

Matt

[Music Lover]

I just want to hear them again and again.

3 Any volume sounds great

Agree on these two.
Adding that when it's great, I like to raise the volume more and more.

4 It is difficult to do anything else whilst listening
5 Interruptions whilst listening are not as welcome as they should be.

Thank god, I haven't these issues - as I have music on 24/7 if I can choose...

Maybe it's due to my preference of not "listening" (=analysing) and instead "letting the music fill my body" (=feel the music)

[Charlie1]

4 It is difficult to do anything else whilst listening
5 Interruptions whilst listening are not as welcome as they should be.

Thank god, I haven't these issues - as I have music on 24/7 if I can choose...

I suppose it also depends what you're doing and if you expect to be left alone to enjoy your music. I think I'd be frustrated if I'd sat down at the end of a long day to relax and enjoy an opera. Whereas it's often chaos in the house whilst preparing dinner and playing a two minute pop song in the background.

[u252agz]

ML and Charlie

I can and often do listen to my two sneakys ( one with ninkas one with Komponent 110s - kitchen and bedroom ) whilst doing other things: and very enjoyable both systems are when used like this. I also occasionally use the movie classik /CD with kef eggs in the lounge which is also ok as background but not as good.

But with the main system - I just find the music too distracting and give in to just focusing on that alone. This room is acoustically isolated from the rest of the house , so its a bit of shock to the system when a member of the family opens the door!

My wife has always said I am not good at multitasking.