How to learn tunedem?

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Broccoli
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How to learn tunedem?

Post by Broccoli »

I have tried to learn tunedem several times, but always failed to hear any differences. I have read the texts on tunedem on this and other sites, and I have been instructed ones by my dealer. No help.

Is there anybody who has any tips on how I could learn tunedem? I would really have something that is more reliable and faster than just my gut feeling.
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Post by jajo »

Tunedem is probably one of the hardest methods to learn if you really want to. The fact is, I have been in the exact same situation. I was once introduced to tunedem, and I really found the method appealing, but I couldn't get any decent results myself. Why? Because I concentrated too much! I forced myself to find differences instead of just listening to the tune and lyrics. I analyzed the music from behind, instead of being inside it. Ironically, it was not until I gave up I finally did understand the method. :mrgreen:

If I tell you how to do a tunedem, you will most likely fail again. Tunedem is not very complicated but highly personal, you need to do it in your way. The basic principle is - find something in the song that you can follow, like the melody of a bass guitar. Try to imagine that this bass guitar is playing in your room (close your eyes). Compare the units and try to find the bass guitar that sounds most accurate and is easiest to follow. Relax. If it doesn't work, start over - and this time, just listen to the song. Switch back and forth.

Just a couple of ideas... Try to Relax, enjoy, follow and understand!

/ jajo
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Post by Music Lover »

A few other ideas:
- be not alone! a few friends that can assist is super. (best is to have "non HIFI" persons at hand, females are GREAT following the tune as they do NOT listen to the sound...)

- stand in the kitchen (you then avoid the HIFI sound, and can follow the tune easier)

- controversial but a little Whisky helps you relax/enjoy.
NOTE
This working, as you can realize, only using single malt Whisky (= from Scotland, hehe) not Whiskye from US :mrgreen:


Likely getting my first warning on this forum now :roll:
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

Jajo is right, it takes a combination of being very relaxed and and the same time focused (not letting your mind drifting away). Your gut feeling might very well be telling you the same thing as a Tune dem, but you are correct in the assumption that the Tune dem is usually faster.

When I used to work in a shop, we would sometimes take people out of the room to have a cup of coffee, while the demonstration (between for example CD player A and CD player B) continued in the demonstration room. The people sitting outside often found it much easier to hear the "tune differences" than those in the room.

This was probably because all the (often very impressive) sounds didn't distract as much and when leaving the demonstration room, people would relax.

I do the same thing today, both when tuning systems and electronics. At home I sometimes go to the kitchen, cook food and move my body around to the music. :) That is the place where I most often find that "hm, that last change I did wasn't that good, after all".
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Post by lejonklou »

Music Lover wrote:- stand in the kitchen (you then avoid the HIFI sound, and can follow the tune easier)
lejonklou wrote:At home I sometimes go to the kitchen
:!: :lol:
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Post by ThomasOK »

Here is a technique that we have used with success. Pick a record or disk with a really good musician - say a guitarist, bassist or pianist. (I've been known to use Artur Rubinstein.) Now before you listen imagine that you are the Music Director for a prestigious music school. You have been auditioning applicants for one available position in the school. You have auditioned a number of applicants and have narrowed it down to just two. Then you do your AB comparison (or AAB as some prefer) and decid which of the two musicians you would accept into the school.

This tends to focus you on the quality of the musicianship rather than the "sound" and the quality of playing is what the Tune Method is all about.

The AAB method I mentioned above is also one many find useful. You will generally find it easier to hear differences with relatively short comparisons. Generally about 10 to 20 seconds. If you listen to a whole piece of music you are comparing the end of one with the beginning of the other. A technique that lets you combine a short and a bit longer comparison is the AAB comparison. It is really quite simple: you just listen to item A for a bit longer - around a minute or two, then you go back and listen to the first 10 or 20 seconds of A, and then you switch to B. This allows you to do the direct short comparison but also a longer at the same time.

And the out of the room idea definitely works (as does having a woman listen with you - they tend to cut through the haze).

I hope these ideas help.
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Post by Samir »

I agree with everything that have been said above. Relax, enjoy and focus on one instrument, follow its tune ... But you can go a step further: take a small jazz band (a trio), and follows the piano, then switch to the drums, and then switch to the bassist or guitarist or whatever instrument is on the trio. This is exactly what you do in a live jazz concert... If you can do this effortlessly in your system, with no fatigue, well there you are: not only you did tune demo, but most likely you have a good system in front of you!

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Post by Broccoli »

Thanks for your tips, I've now tried some of them, without luck though. I think my main problem is simply that I get tense when I'm about to test something, and can't concentrate. Being in another room is a good trick, but it doesn't help me if I'm thinking about that it's a test.

Well well, someday :)
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Tune Dance?

Post by Ceilidh »

Hi Everyone,

This will probably sound more than a little silly, but as I still have trouble with Tune Dem (sometimes I think I'm doing it right, and sometimes repeatability goes right out the window), I was wondering....

Q: Is "Tune Dance" an ok substitute for Tune Dem?

For some reason, "danceability" (if that's a real word) is turning out to be much more repeatable for me than is singability. I don't just mean hearing the beat; in fact I kind of mean the opposite -- it's more of an emotional thing! That is, I have certain CD tracks (not dance tunes per se; they tend to be Irish instrumental or Baroque/Classical chamber pieces, some of which are quite lilting), and when I play those tracks after an adjustment to my system, I'm either content to sit on the sofa, or else I want to get up and dance with a lovely partner.

Or to put it another way: It's not what I can or can't hear if I "listen", it's how much the music pulls me in and moves me when I don't notice whether I'm listening at all....

The thing is, this danceability is much more consistent for me than is "singing along with the tune". After I've heard a recording a few times, I don't really notice how hard or how easy it is to sing along. But the degree to which I want to get up off the sofa, well, that seems to consistently vary with the state of my system! Moreover, the danceability seems to work like people's descriptions of Tune Dem, in that oftentimes I'll make an adjustment or change that seems to "improve the sound" (e.g., things will sound smoother & sweeter, or I'll be able to hear more percussion / rhythm instruments, etc.), but then I'll notice that I have no inclination to get up and dance, and after a while I'll become either bored or irritated with the sound. Conversely, if I make a change that makes dancing easier / harder to resist, then it's a change that I'm happy to listen to for long periods of time.

Could it be that "danceability" addresses the same things as does Tune Dem? For a recording to make a so-so dancer like myself want to stand up, it has to have an emotional draw, coupled with a drive and a sweep that presumably can't happen when things are out of tune or out of time. Or am I just imagining things?

Anyway, I'll keep working on the TuneDem -- I'd like to get to the state that you all seem to have attained, wherein a 1/4 inch shift in a speaker position produces clear and repeatable results!!

All best, everyone, and please have a great weekend. :D

-C
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote:
Music Lover wrote:- stand in the kitchen (you then avoid the HIFI sound, and can follow the tune easier)
lejonklou wrote:At home I sometimes go to the kitchen
:!: :lol:
Totally unrelated to this discussion but with a family you spend a lot of time in the kitchen :mrgreen:

Ceilidh, Tune dem can be detected in diferent ways. If it works for you great.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Tune Dance?

Post by lejonklou »

Ceilidh wrote:Could it be that "danceability" addresses the same things as does Tune Dem? For a recording to make a so-so dancer like myself want to stand up, it has to have an emotional draw, coupled with a drive and a sweep that presumably can't happen when things are out of tune or out of time.
Yes, I can imagine these two adressing the same properties of the reproduction. I sometimes use "Tune Dance" to evaluate differences myself - although I suspect I mainly listen to the tunefulness and the interaction between the musicians and then add the dance as a way to relax and stop my mind from being distracted by other thoughts.

Remember that the Tune Method is a method that uses your human ability to understand music. Therefore it's not strange to find that we implement it in slightly different ways.

I have, however, met quite a few people who claim to go by "feeling" and usually I disagree with their conclusions. A common pattern seems to be that exaggerated dynamics and/or focus on rhythmical sounds is something that makes the "feelers" happy. Quite often when I fine tune either electronic circuits or loudspeaker positions, I come across settings that give this impressive rhythm boost. But they are seldom the most musical settings and this becomes obvious when I do a Tune Dem.

If you have really sensitive feet :wink:, I suspect that you could experience these impressive settings as stressed and forced - and therefore more difficult to dance to. And then possibly arrive at the same conclusions as someone doing a Tune Dem.

EDIT: Partly rewritten
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Why the Hostility?

Post by Ceilidh »

Kind of off-topic, but...

:?: Why are non-Linn devotees often so hostile towards Linn?

I noticed a bit of this before while looking for Klimax DS info (wound up on the Slim Devices forum), and today I came across this Pink Fish thread (which references the Lejonklou thread you're currently reading):

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/show ... hp?t=40080

It was pretty funny to come across someone who actually tried the "Tune Dance" method :D ( "Murray, don't knock it if you haven't tried it. I did. I walked out of the house up the lane about 1/2 a mile and then tried to remember which one sounded best. I tried the dancing version but was nearly hit by a tractor, so I wouldn't recommend that." ), but in general they seem to think we're pretty silly:
I thought the Linn forum was sort of like...

Forum Regulator: So. You once used a piece of hi-fi equipment not manufactured by Linn then, did you?

Newbie: Um. Well. I was young. Experimenting. I didn't inhale. I mean, we all have at one time or other haven't we. When we're young. Inexperienced.

Forum Regulator: BURN THE WITCH! INFIDEL! UNBELIEVER! STONE HIM!

Or something?
(Note: there's also (occasionally) a level of rudeness among a few of the posts that you just don't see here or on Topica -- presumably that's a function of the forum moderators?)

And here are some excerpts from various Klimax DS postings on Slim Devices (from various persons):
"Phil, from your postings here you appear to be that very rare animal - a Linn devotee with a sense of proportion (and a sense of humour). Most Linn afficionados get rather tetchy when the infallibility of Ivor and his products is questioned. I applaud your down-to-earth attitude."

"The one positive thing Linn has achieved is to make the ultra-conservative audiophile press to start taking the concept seriously......The price is what you'd expect from Linn. Just because it costs a king's ransom is no guarantee that it will sound fabulous. (Consider Linn's ludicrously overpriced loudspeakers, for example)."

"This just sounds like an ill-conceived and stupendously overpriced device........"

"in their world it's a law of nature that anything without a Linn badge is by definition inferior"
Now, these threads also had folks defending Linn, so it wasn't all one-sided -- but it was striking the amount of emotion some of the posts showed. Why is this? I love my little Linn system, but I don't begrudge other people liking their own setups better. And if there are philosophical differences (e.g., on Pink Fish there are well-received and generally-agreed-with posts advising newbies to spend 75% of their system budget on speakers), well, there are philosophical differences -- but why the anger?

Or are Linn enthusiasts (away from this forum) who have been rude / overbearing towards other audiophiles, perhaps in the past?

Anyway, the reason I'm posting these musings here is that Tune Dem is made fun of as well. It was interesting to browse these other forums to see how people evaluate systems: some folks spend a good deal of time recommending components A, B, C for rock music, but D, E, F for orchestral, and then G, H, I for chamber or voice, as (I'm guessing) the idea is to match the sonic character of your system with the sonic characteristics of your preferred music. Interesting point -- but I think I'll stick with trying to learn TuneDem more properly!

All the best (and I'm glad everyone here is nice and civil!) :D

-C

P.S. - Mr. Lejonklou, I'm coming around to your perspective on "stressed and forced" vs. "tuneful", particularly with regards to "Tunedance": there's a track or two that I found easier to dance to before I replaced my awful silver-plated speaker connectors with the soldered Knekt bananas. So for me, at least, dancing isn't a completely reliable assessment method, as rhythmic drive and energy sometimes has a bigger dance effect than does musicality....
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Post by lejonklou »

I didn't find one single comment in that Pink Fish thread that defended the Tune (or Dance) Method. They were all making fun of it.

The reasons for accusing it of being nonsense/marketing propaganda are always the same:

1. The person in question can't perform the Tune Method.
2. The person feels as if his/her ability to judge hifi systems is being questioned by those advocating the Tune Method.
3. The person decides that the best defense is to claim the method is complete nonsense.

The hostility comes from the fact that Linn enthusiasts so often agree with eachother. The reason for the agreement is that we judge performance in the same way, but to the outsider who is unable to hear the same things, it appears as if the Linn community is a cult where someone at the top must be deciding what the followers should think.

Anyone looking more closely will see that there is both a certain degree of disagreement between those using the Tune Method (which is the best: Kaber or NInka? Genki or Karik? Unidisk SC or Ikemi? etc) and that whoever is the "dictator at the top", the orders do not always seem to be in Linns favour:

Bonnec Timpano beats the Kairn (I think everyone agrees)
Lejonklou Kinki beats most of Linns MM-stages (I think everyone agrees)
ATC have some speaker models that are above Linn quality (Thomas tip, I have not yet heard from anyone else who've tried them)

More examples of things that are better than Linn is partly what this forum is for. Almost every Linn owner I have spoken to feel the same way: We will all benefit when Linn gets more competition. And I will try my best to make sure they will.
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Post by Music Lover »

Agree with Fredrik's analysis but I like to add one thing.
I think people also get offended by the fact that Linn enthusiast:
A/ CAN buy the (to be honest) quite expensive stuff.
B/ AND that we are happy with the system! (and they normally are not…)

I see the same towards Naim owners...
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by bbyte »

like LINN, APPLE, NAIM...
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Post by sommerfee »

What I always find funny is that some very obviously good things are marked as bad during such "discussions":

- Linn tells us how they judge gear during development (TuneDem) => Linn is arrogant, they tell us how we have to hear music

- Linn provides a LP12 setup manual => Linn is arrogant, they tell us how we have to setup the LP12 -or- The LP12 is crap, even a setup manual is needed so you can make it play (quite) good

- Linn offers updates for the LP12 => The LP12 is crap, the user always have to update to make it sound good. (And of course it's still not sounding good, for that reason future updates will be released.)

etc. :roll:

BTW: I agree to Fredrik, too. If you don't understand something (or it would lead to other equipment you already have bought for a huge amount of money), and you don't want to understand the other point of view, you just make either a laugh about it or fight against it. Even if the topic is just stupid dead hifi stuff. :roll:
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Re: Why the Hostility?

Post by Linnjim »

Ceilidh wrote: 2007-10-25 15:28 Anyway, the reason I'm posting these musings here is that Tune Dem is made fun of as well. It was interesting to browse these other forums to see how people evaluate systems: some folks spend a good deal of time recommending components A, B, C for rock music, but D, E, F for orchestral, and then G, H, I for chamber or voice, as (I'm guessing) the idea is to match the sonic character of your system with the sonic characteristics of your preferred music. Interesting point -- but I think I'll stick with trying to learn TuneDem more properly!
Sorry to revive an old thread but... I have been trying to teach myself tune-dem for a couple of years now.
I feel like i know almost instantly if i prefer AA or B but I am struggling to disagree with the statements of the folks that recommend different things for different genres of music.

My problem is that i can tune dem 10-20 seconds of a track until I am certain that it is far more musical and easy to follow than a previous speaker position. I will then listen to the rest of the album with a smile on my face, certain that this time my efforts have paid off, only to be proven wrong when I play music of a different genre or style.

If I tune-dem to that album then the results are mirrored.

Consequently tune-dem has me moving my speakers about the house every few months, when I decide to play an album that I know should sound amazing but really doesn't.

The music that keeps me from settling includes stuff like:
Anything by "Bad Astronaut" - Not everyone's kettle of fish but I have been listening to them for years.
Queen's "Made in Heaven" - A staggering album than usually sounds flat and confusing if I tune-dem to Leonard Cohen for example.
Stephan Bodzin's "Singularity" - This song can blow my mind but unless my speakers are placed further apart then I miss the galactic soundstage it can create.

Just me I presume? I'm sure that my tune-dem skills are lacking but I have been telling my other half that we can't buy a sofa until I know where the speakers are going for 3 years now!
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How to learn tunedem?

Post by Ron The Mon »

Linnjim,
Have you read this post; Setting Up Loudspeakers For The Best Tune?

You are doing the right thing setting up speakers, then buying furniture. I would trust your wife's ears and do this with her. As Fredrik mentions in the linked post, it is good to have someone help you. Perhaps put an ad here in the Wanted section looking for a pair of tune-dem ears to help you for a day or evening and help teach you.

Ron The Mon
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Re: How to learn tunedem?

Post by donuk »

It may be that just a few forum readers are in a similar position to myself.

I have been listening to and constructing hifi for decades.

Because, in recent years my system has included Linn and Lejonklou items, I have never been far from the concept of Tunedem.

I have wrestled with this, argued, been pitied, and been told that musicians are no good at hearing music anyway.

What I have concluded is that evaluating by Tunedem is a bit like many other delicate processes in life - if you get self conscious about doing them, you fail.

So I no longer think of Tunedem. I just listen to the music. What I have found when in the same room as tunedemmers, I can predict and invariably agree with their preferences.

So I conclude I do it subconsciously, or by another route that gives similar results.

Listening to music is a passion. A bit like love and beauty itself, if you look too closely at it, it evaporates.

Donuk beautiful downtown York
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Re: How to learn tunedem?

Post by beck »

donuk wrote: 2020-02-25 10:20 It may be that just a few forum readers are in a similar position to myself.

I have been listening to and constructing hifi for decades.

Because, in recent years my system has included Linn and Lejonklou items, I have never been far from the concept of Tunedem.

I have wrestled with this, argued, been pitied, and been told that musicians are no good at hearing music anyway.

What I have concluded is that evaluating by Tunedem is a bit like many other delicate processes in life - if you get self conscious about doing them, you fail.

So I no longer think of Tunedem. I just listen to the music. What I have found when in the same room as tunedemmers, I can predict and invariably agree with their preferences.

So I conclude I do it subconsciously, or by another route that gives similar results.

Listening to music is a passion. A bit like love and beauty itself, if you look too closely at it, it evaporates.

Donuk beautiful downtown York
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Playing cd’s…………
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Re: How to learn tunedem?

Post by Spannko »

beck wrote: 2020-02-25 10:51
donuk wrote: 2020-02-25 10:20 It may be that just a few forum readers are in a similar position to myself.

I have been listening to and constructing hifi for decades.

Because, in recent years my system has included Linn and Lejonklou items, I have never been far from the concept of Tunedem.

I have wrestled with this, argued, been pitied, and been told that musicians are no good at hearing music anyway.

What I have concluded is that evaluating by Tunedem is a bit like many other delicate processes in life - if you get self conscious about doing them, you fail.

So I no longer think of Tunedem. I just listen to the music. What I have found when in the same room as tunedemmers, I can predict and invariably agree with their preferences.

So I conclude I do it subconsciously, or by another route that gives similar results.

Listening to music is a passion. A bit like love and beauty itself, if you look too closely at it, it evaporates.

Donuk beautiful downtown York
👍👍👍🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰👍👍👍
Couldn’t agree more guys.

Since discovering inharmonicity (basically, errors in the reproduction of harmonics), my belief in TuneDem has solidified, and yet, at the same time, it’s allowed me to be open to other evaluation methods which focus on the effects of inharmonicity. For example, I can accept that it’s possible that an experienced person with an intimate knowledge of the sound of an acoustic instrument could choose the most musical components by listening to the timbre of the reproduced instrument. Controversial, I know, but it’s just another consequence of inharmonicity.

The danger, of course, is that without an intimate knowledge of the sound of an instrument, people will choose the sound they prefer, which has got bugger all to do with musicality. So, for most of us, TuneDem remains one of the easiest and reliable forms of evaluation.
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Re: How to learn tunedem?

Post by V.A.MKD »

Spannko wrote: 2020-02-25 11:41
beck wrote: 2020-02-25 10:51
donuk wrote: 2020-02-25 10:20 It may be that just a few forum readers are in a similar position to myself.

I have been listening to and constructing hifi for decades.

Because, in recent years my system has included Linn and Lejonklou items, I have never been far from the concept of Tunedem.

I have wrestled with this, argued, been pitied, and been told that musicians are no good at hearing music anyway.

What I have concluded is that evaluating by Tunedem is a bit like many other delicate processes in life - if you get self conscious about doing them, you fail.

So I no longer think of Tunedem. I just listen to the music. What I have found when in the same room as tunedemmers, I can predict and invariably agree with their preferences.

So I conclude I do it subconsciously, or by another route that gives similar results.

Listening to music is a passion. A bit like love and beauty itself, if you look too closely at it, it evaporates.

Donuk beautiful downtown York
👍👍👍🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰👍👍👍
Couldn’t agree more guys.

Since discovering inharmonicity (basically, errors in the reproduction of harmonics), my belief in TuneDem has solidified, and yet, at the same time, it’s allowed me to be open to other evaluation methods which focus on the effects of inharmonicity. For example, I can accept that it’s possible that an experienced person with an intimate knowledge of the sound of an acoustic instrument could choose the most musical components by listening to the timbre of the reproduced instrument. Controversial, I know, but it’s just another consequence of inharmonicity.

The danger, of course, is that without an intimate knowledge of the sound of an instrument, people will choose the sound they prefer, which has got bugger all to do with musicality. So, for most of us, TuneDem remains one of the easiest and reliable forms of evaluation.
+1 with Spannko.
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Re: How to learn tunedem?

Post by V.A.MKD »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-02-18 22:06 Linnjim,
Have you read this post; Setting Up Loudspeakers For The Best Tune?

You are doing the right thing setting up speakers, then buying furniture. I would trust your wife's ears and do this with her. As Fredrik mentions in the linked post, it is good to have someone help you. Perhaps put an ad here in the Wanted section looking for a pair of tune-dem ears to help you for a day or evening and help teach you.

Ron The Mon
Add this one to my previous quote ...
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Re: How to learn tunedem?

Post by Charlie1 »

I like Dom's post too!

A few quick thoughts:
  • Keep practicing
  • Relax - don't bother with it if you're stressed or in a hurry
  • You will improve over time
  • Everyone makes mistakes
  • Don't put pressure on yourself to find the "correct" answer - just trust your ears and what you enjoy
  • Don't put pressure on yourself to finish everything in one go - better to make a little bit of progress each time
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Re: How to learn tunedem?

Post by Spannko »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-02-25 16:59 I like Dom's post too!

A few quick thoughts:
  • Keep practicing
  • Relax - don't bother with it if you're stressed or in a hurry
  • You will improve over time
  • Everyone makes mistakes
  • Don't put pressure on yourself to find the "correct" answer - just trust your ears and what you enjoy
  • Don't put pressure on yourself to finish everything in one go - better to make a little bit of progress each time
That’s exactly the advice my wife gave me on our honeymoon.
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