Linn Skeets

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Linn Skeets

Post by Lego »

I read somewhere in the Loopy Linn forum that skeets can improve the sound of ones speakers even on carpet ,does anyone have an opinion on this?
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Post by Moomintroll »

Hi Lego,

yes, I'm sure we've discussed this on this forum too. I use Quadraspire QX7s on carpet and wouldn't be without them. I believe that Thomas OK also has experience of the Linn Skeet. I, too, was very sceptical when it was suggested to me, but as this advice came from (what I consider to be) a highly trustworthy Linn dealer who uses them on speakers up to the Klimax 350 (they don't hear a benefit with the Komri) I gave it a try. I've been a Linn user for nearly 30 years and have spent some time in retail, in the past, and I was convinced that spiked and rigid was the way to do it, but perhaps it's not the complete answer and perhaps not coupling the speaker to the floor (mine's wood) with spikes is more important than absolute rigidity. I must admit, after a few days on skeets or whatever, the speaker doesn't move much anyway.

I think that there was a suggestion that you could try the spikes on £1 coins or similar, if you couldn't borrow some skeets to try. I've never compared the skeets to the QX7s (which are over 3 times the price) as I was recommended the QX7s, loaned a set and loved them.

Your experience may vary.

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Post by Lego »

Thanks for that 'Troll ,8 pound coins!!Good to see you're not affected by the credit crunch;I'm sure I've got a few thr'penny bits somewhere :)
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Post by lejonklou »

I too was convinced of the rigid coupling between speaker and floor, but just like you Moomintroll, I have experienced an improvement when using skeets on carpet.

I have also experimented with thin cloth between skeets and hardwood floor, it seems it can sometimes make an improvement as well.

I have the Quadraspire skeets on loan and intend to compare them with Skeets, but right now my system is completely disconnected due to the floor being remade, so it will have to wait...
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Post by Lego »

Thanks for that Fredrik and don't forget to do a tune dem between the old and new floor :)
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Post by Music Lover »

What to do if the old floor was better. :|
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Post by Lego »

Music Lover wrote:What to do if the old floor was better. :|
Easy!Just move to a new place,is there anything you don't need Fredrik?
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Post by ThomasOK »

I'll have to third that. I was well and truly into coupling but after hearing comments about Skeets on carpet I decided to try it at a customer installation. I was quite surprised to find that Skeets on carpet with Artikulat 350As was a definite improvement in tune dem terms and also in the typical Hi-Fi descriptors. My customer tried the speakers with and without the Skeets for about a week and agreed they were an improvement - they are now a permanent feature under his speakers. We also found them to work equally well under equipment racks and he has them there as well.

The store where I work has a sister company that is the Quadraspire importer and distributor for the US. We have demonstrated, to the satisfaction of all who work here, that the QX7s also improve the sound of speakers and equipment racks when used on carpet. As to Skeets vs. QX7s I can't give you anything definitive yet. My 350A customer plans to compare the two at some point to see which he likes better. I tried the QX7s at home under my main equipment rack and I preferred the Skeets but I am on hardwood floors so that has to be taken into account. My whole system is on Skeets (two large speakers and three equipment stands) and I am quite happy with the results. I haven't tried the QX7s under my speakers as they would require two sets and the speakers are quite heavy, but I would like to try the QX7s some time under the turntable stand as a double check on what I heard on the main rack.
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Post by lejonklou »

Lego wrote:Easy!Just move to a new place,is there anything you don't need Fredrik?
You are a funny bunch! :lol:

What I don't need is the big fat Loewe TV. Wouldn't mind a swap for a smallish projector! :D

What I DO need is my laboratory, where a brand new prototype is locked in for three more days. It will need a lot of tuning and I can't wait to continue with that most enjoyable part of designing audio electronics. After months of preparations to get the first circuit boards made up, I finally get to play some music on them. It's a thrill!

Thomas: Interested to hear about your conclusions regarding the QX7's!
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Post by Music Lover »

ThomasOK wrote: My whole system is on Skeets (two large speakers and three equipment stands)
Same here.
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Post by Charlie1 »

I thinking of getting skeets for my Ninka's (on carpet), but just want to check first if there are any more updates from anyone re QX7s.
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Post by lejonklou »

I tried them today!

Compared with Skeets on hardwood floor. At first the result was a bit mixed... QX7's definitely lowered the level of the bass and things felt more tidy and clean. The Skeets were more boomy, shouty and "live"-sounding. I somehow felt like both of them did something slightly wrong.

I then adjusted the spikes to make sure the force on each Skeet was the same. This can be estimated by rotating each Skeet with your fingers. After this, the Skeets became more controlled in the bass (compared to before the adjustment) and I felt they performed better than the QX7's.

I am not sure what the result will be on carpet, but I can guess: The Skeets are hard and the QX7's are damped by rubber. The carpet will add more damping. My guess is that the Skeets will win.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Great - thanks Fredrik.
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Post by Briain »

Hi

My experience with spikes, Skeets and glue (not sniffing it though) would suggest that speakers could well benefit from Skeets on carpet; how fast they move, how easily they move, reflected energy and the recovery time are all worth considering.

Many years ago, I experimented with this sort of thing. I used to have PMS Isobariks and tried coupling them to the concrete bed below the wooden floor (temporarily setting a paving slab through the floor to the concrete raft below); the results were poor! I think a lot of energy was simply reflected back from the concrete (not just low frequencies). I found that the low frequency fundimental movement (resonant frequency of the system) had been replaced by much smaller but higher frequency resonances (up in the audio band) and that once excited, it took much longer for it all to stop as there was simply no damping anywhere in the mechanical system.

I put things back to normal and tried filling the stands (with the side panels fitted) and they sounded really good. After doing some other work in the house (and having to move the Isobasts), I put them back temporarily (without the spikes) and noticed that they sounded really fabulous. The weight of the sand (more than a cubic foot per speaker stand) lowered the frequency at which the overall assembly moved; if you tapped the front, they did physically move at a very low frequency, but they and stopped as soon as they ‘sprung’ back to rest (as opposed to moving over several cycles like they did on spikes). If you think about it, the longer they resonate, the more information could potentially be lost; think of having a big spring in your arm tube :)

After all that rambling, I guess I'm proposing that whether to use Skeets will depend on the mass of the speakers, their centre of gravity, and potentially also the compliance and density of the floor, but that there are good reasons to try them out! Maybe use coins as an experiment and if it sounds like it's going to work, get Skeets as a more permenant solution. Lejonklou's advice on equalizing the force on each Skeet by checking the rotational resistance is really worth adopting (bear in mind that depending on the centre of gravity of the speakers, the back two might be slightly different to the front two); it is an excellent way to ensure things are optimized. It’s also worth re-visiting the process after the floor has had a chance to settle.

If you have an accessable suspended floor, to stiffen up the floor below them (MDF under the boards, some additional dwangs between the joists and a good healthy splodge of wood glue everywhere). The floor stiffening work can make quite a difference (bearing in mind all the above issues).

Incidentally, I also tried home made inverted Skeets (long before Skeets were made) on a turntable wall shelf. These had sorbothane pads between them and the shelf, and in addition, a 5th adjustable one in the centre to damp the MDF shelf itself. This could be set by placing the stylus on a stationary record, tapping the shelf and adjusting for shortest ‘bong’ through the speakers. Like noted above with the speakers, the differences were musical improvements since they were shortening the ‘recovery time’ of events.

A big ramble I know, but I hope it gives food for thought when experimenting!!

Bri :mrgreen:
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Post by Lego »

Hi Bri has auld reekie quietened down yet?
I tried the skeets under my Kans in the shop and they didn't' help much,but under the Ninkas at home, big improvement .I can listen to them 10 points higher on the Kairn and they seem less noisy,I wonder what would happen if I took the spikes off?
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Post by lejonklou »

Briain wrote:I guess I'm proposing that whether to use Skeets will depend on the mass of the speakers, their centre of gravity, and potentially also the compliance and density of the floor
You may be correct that it depends on these parameters, but so far I have found an improvement with skeets on all speakers. Regardless of speaker model, floor etc.
This could be set by placing the stylus on a stationary record, tapping the shelf and adjusting for shortest ‘bong’ through the speakers.
Now this is really interesting, as there are some wildy varying opinions in this field.

If you are only searching for the shortest possible reverbation time (the 'bong'), I think big soft damping pads of sorbothane will win. The problem is that I have never liked what they do to the music; they usually mess up the dynamics and the tunefulness really bad. The makers of sorbothane feet have, however, "proven" how much better their products are compared to hard coupling with spikes, with graphs showing that the reverbation can be shorter in time and lower in amplitude. As expected, they never mention anything related to musical reproduction, only what their feet does to the sound.

When I spoke to Anders Simonsson in Gothenburg, who makes Harmonihyllan and the (absolutely outstanding) Mimer rack and who has been working with these things for many many years, he said this:

"The amount of ringing in the shelf is not important, but the harmonics are really vital. If you start with a shelf that gives a disharmonic sound - no matter how short the reverbation is - you can never make it sound good. But if you start with a shelf that has a sweet and harmonic ring to it, even if sustained for a long time, you can get a good sound by applying the right amount of damping to it."

Pretty interesting, don't you think?

EDIT: Grammar...
Last edited by lejonklou on 2008-09-08 22:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Just ordered a set of Skeets for my Ninka's on carpeted suspended floor.

Thanks again Fredrik for checking them against the QX7s and for everyone else's feedback. Will let you know how I get on.
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Post by Briain »

Hi

It is interesting and I had lots of fun trying all sorts of different materials for the shelf and then the effects of damping or not damping them. In the end, I made a mahogany frame table with a thin MDF sheet for the top plate, which sat inside (but not touching) the top horizontal struts. Sort of similar format to the original Sound Org table but with thicker legs and the top plate sitting on the inside of the leg-tops (on tiny thin pads of sorbothane). Luckily, it both looked good and sounded foot-tappingly splendid so I stopped experimenting at that point!

I've heard many theories about having something which rings / doesn't ring and the rejection of the turntable suspension etc. At the end of the day, I just gave up theorizing, tried different things and used the virtual accelerometer on my big toe to measure the foot tapping amplitude. Actually, that's one everybody's missed: The more musical it sounds, the more you tap your feet and the higher level of foot-tapping activities will more likely disturb the turntable suspension so there must be an optimum balance; now that’s what I call a truly holistic approach to setting a system up! Actually, some mass-market manufacturers must have considered this a serious problem; their products seem to be carefully engineered to completely eliminate any musical involvement what so ever, thus eliminating any possibility of foot tapping energy being fed into the loop!
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Post by Charlie1 »

Brian wrote:Actually, some mass-market manufacturers must have considered this a serious problem; their products seem to be carefully engineered to completely eliminate any musical involvement what so ever, thus eliminating any possibility of foot tapping energy being fed into the loop! Mr. Green
very funny Brian - LOL :lol:
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Post by lejonklou »

Briain wrote:I made a mahogany frame table with a thin MDF sheet for the top plate, which sat inside (but not touching) the top horizontal struts. Sort of similar format to the original Sound Org table but with thicker legs and the top plate sitting on the inside of the leg-tops (on tiny thin pads of sorbothane).
Sounds good, Briain. Did you try other materials than sorbothane between shelf and frame? Just asking because I tried all sorts of things on my Quadraspire wall shelf a few years ago and that detail made quite a difference. And perhaps I'm asking also because I've never had any sucess with that dreaded sorbothane. :wink: :wink:
the more you tap your feet and the higher level of foot-tapping activities will more likely disturb the turntable suspension so there must be an optimum balance
Ah! That could be the reason why I often find it easier to distinguish between subtle differences from the kitchen than sitting in front of the speakers! :mrgreen:
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Post by Music Lover »

Get rid of the turntable, problem solved :wink:
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Post by teatime »

lejonklou wrote:And perhaps I'm asking also because I've never had any sucess with that dreaded sorbothane. :wink: :wink:
I think the craziest demo I ever got was when Anders Simonsson once showed me what happened when he put a piece of Sorbothane beside the LK1 on an IKEA Lack rack. The tune got worse!

Not to mention what it did under the LK1. Avoid!
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Post by Music Lover »

:shock: :shock:
Spooooooky
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Post by Briain »

Hi Lego, sorry I missed your response and yes, it's a bit more sane here now (unlike myself).
Bri :)
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Post by Briain »

Hi

That's indeed a strange one! I still actually use a heavily modified LK1 for my TV room system (amongst other things, it has active Ninka cards fitted ins the case and additional heatsinking on the main regulators).

I've heard systems being improved by damping the equipment cases with piled of books; don't think the content metters too much :) I've tried it myself on the Majik CD, Majik Preamp and on Karik/Numerik/Kairn feeding Kektik's and 350a's. In all cases, tunes started appearing and the bass uniformity / musicallity vastly improving. Often, poor bass definition is blamed on speakers, speakers being too close to the wall or the room being simply wrong and it is often feedback. For the minimal time it takes to try, it's well worth experimenting!

NB I've not tried this on my LK1 as it needs the surface area left free to dissipate all that heat!!

NB Music Lover, I sort of have got rid of it; I no longer use my turntable casual listening (stylus prices have been ridiculous for too many years). For several years, I've only occasionally used it to digitally record certain rare records (for anyone who's interested, via a Quantum dBx A/D and RME-audio AES/EBU ~ PCI interface + word clock, then using Sound Forge to capture and edit them), initially, I used this at 16/44.1 to create CD's (which often sounded better than the official ones; particularly with the early efforts), then, as HDD’s increased in size, to try playing WAV's from a PC (back to the dBx or a Numerik), and now of course, since I got the Klimax DS, I'll be using it to FLAC rare albums for my NAS (when I get the time).

Incidentally, I first tried making a 24/96 recording from an LP12/Ekos/Arkive 8 years ago and was sold on the idea back then; big trobule was, you couldn't get big HDD's so there was no practical way to store and retrieve more than a couple of albums at 24/96!

Bri
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