Tangerine Audio Aluminum LP12 Plinth

[Charlie1]

Fluted version looks great to me. Anyone heard it?

[matthias]

Fluted version looks great to me. Anyone heard it?

I am wondering how the Stiletto fits into the Linn hierarchy in comparison to Radikal and Keel.
On the Linn forum DW questioned whether aluminium is the best material to do plinth AND top plate.

Matt

[Charlie1]

I am wondering how the Stiletto fits into the Linn hierarchy in comparison to Radikal and Keel.
On the Linn forum DW questioned whether aluminium is the best material to do plinth AND top plate.

Hi Matt, yes me too. And like you said, also curious if it's actually better than wood, especially since Tom/Tony and many others find the standard top plate more tuneful than these aluminium ones. But you never know, perhaps aluminium plinth and top plate changes that somehow.

[matthias]

Hi Matt, yes me too. And like you said, also curious if it's actually better than wood, especially since Tom/Tony and many others find the standard top plate more tuneful than these aluminium ones. But you never know, perhaps aluminium plinth and top plate changes that somehow.

Hi Charlie1,

interpreting DW comment on the LF I am curious whether Linn will come up with a machined aluminium plinth WITHOUT a top plate and using perhaps an improved version of the stainless steel top plate.
Yes, ThomasOK compared the TA Karmen to the Linn SS top plate and found the later much more musical.
We will see what Linn brings to the party.

Matt

[sunbeamgls]

There's some commentary about this on the Naim forum, from a customer and from someone else who visited for a listen.

[matthias]

There's some commentary about this on the Naim forum, from a customer and from someone else who visited for a listen.

http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/if-yo ... -like-this

Interesting that one of the contributors to this thread proposed to perform a tune-dem comparison but did not find favour.

Matt

[sunbeamgls]

There's some commentary about this on the Naim forum, from a customer and from someone else who visited for a listen.

http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/if-yo ... -like-this

Interesting that one of the contributors to this thread proposed to perform a tune-dem comparison but did not find favour.

Matt

But not really surprising.

[sunbeamgls]

Fluted version looks great to me. Anyone heard it?

I really like the look of the Tangerine plinth. Just one observation on this one though, and it's not a criticism at all, more of an idealist comment - wouldn't it look amazing with a black Ekos and a black anodized platter too?

[matthias]

What I would like to know is how the Stiletto fits into the Linn hierarchy.
If it ranks first with the tune method a Stiletto LP12 with Majik SC, Majik PS, Akito and Adikt would certainly outperform a Klimax LP12.
Tangerine Audio was not able to answer this question.

Matt

[Charlie1]

I really like the look of the Tangerine plinth. Just one observation on this one though, and it's not a criticism at all, more of an idealist comment - wouldn't it look amazing with a black Ekos and a black anodized platter too?

Now that doesn't surprise me with your fondness of all black HiFi :)

I'd like to see a stealthy all-black LP12 but not sure I'd prefer it.

I do like the contrast of the silver and black. I think the silver Ittok is my favourite in that sense, when combined with the black ash plinth. It's metal finish better matched the platter than the Ekos SE (which is a duller grey) plus the silver Ittok had more black elements to help mix things up a bit.

[Charlie1]

Interesting that one of the contributors to this thread proposed to perform a tune-dem comparison but did not find favour.

It's great to see enthusiasm about a new product but the thread does also remind me that unless the views are backed up by someone (typically an LP12 dealer, or Fredrik) that I trust then they are of limited value, especially a product like this that requires a complete LP12 rebuild.

[matthias]

It's great to see enthusiasm about a new product but the thread does also remind me that unless the views are backed up by someone (typically an LP12 dealer, or Fredrik) that I trust then they are of limited value, especially a product like this that requires a complete LP12 rebuild.

Yes, the Stiletto is a Karmen with integrated alu plinth and the Karmen failed in a comparison with the Linn top plate performed by Thomas, one of the LP12 dealers I trust the most.
And nobody knows what the contributors pay for the Stiletto.

Matt

[beck]

It's great to see enthusiasm about a new product but the thread does also remind me that unless the views are backed up by someone (typically an LP12 dealer, or Fredrik) that I trust then they are of limited value, especially a product like this that requires a complete LP12 rebuild.

Yes, the Stiletto is a Karmen with integrated alu plinth and the Karmen failed in a comparison with the Linn top plate performed by Thomas, one of the LP12 dealers I trust the most.
And nobody knows what the contributors pay for the Stiletto.

Matt

I share your views on the matter.

[David Neel]

It's interesting how internet forums have become a marketing vehicle.....

I was one of the first people to hear a Booplinth, and one of the first to buy one. I have posted about my experience both here and on the Linn forum. I no longer post on the Linn forum partly due to the insults and invective which resulted, including from some who are also on this forum.

When the Stiletto was announced, and gathered a fan club on the Linn forum, another member spotted the contrast, and emailed me as follows:

"Its a game changer
Upsets the LP12 hierarchy
Its machined to avoid joints
It comes from a 3rd party
The 3rd party makes big claims in their advertising
But it costs 1600!
That's outrageous!
How dare they!
Only handcrafted exotic woods should cost that much!
Let's gang up and rubbish it!

12 months later...

Its a game changer
Upsets the LP12 hierarchy
Its machined to avoid joints
It comes from a 3rd party
The 3rd party makes big claims in their advertising
It costs 5000!
So it must be good!
I'm so glad they're leading the way with a different way of thinking - the plinth. Of course!
Aluminium is clearly an acceptable product, even though I've never heard it, it is surely going to be equal to exotic woods
Let's club together and make this new arrival welcome.

I have no axe to grind either way, but really?"

I am very happy that I chose a Booplinth, based on tunedem. I have previously agreed with ThomasOK on many things including his thoughts on the Khan top plate (which I heard on three occasions), but I was very disappointed in his review of the Booplinth on here. It seemed to me that there might have been an element of conflict? Especially considering that a well-known third party plinth manufacturer chose to attack the Booplinth (and threaten me) on the Linn forum. A slightly disproportionate response, you might think.

Third party manufacturers and "expert" retailers alike have an interest in internet forums to boost their sales. All I can say is "caveat emptor", or in other terms, "follow the money" - there is plenty of incentive to fudge the truth. Another perspective could be that if they feel the need to knock you, they are worried.

Okay, rant over! If you listen before you buy, and use tunedem, you should be safe.

[donuk]

Sorry to hear that such a gentle soul as yourself David has had a rough time on the Linn forum.
I only post there in connection with DS control software and firmware which is currently ringing the changes again.
I would not again share views on a tweak or experiences of new equipment with that group.
There is nothing to be gained from rubbishing somebody's equipment.

Rest in a spirit of benevolence and comradeship here!

Don

[Charlie1]

I am very happy that I chose a Booplinth, based on tunedem. I have previously agreed with ThomasOK on many things including his thoughts on the Khan top plate (which I heard on three occasions), but I was very disappointed in his review of the Booplinth on here. It seemed to me that there might have been an element of conflict? Especially considering that a well-known third party plinth manufacturer chose to attack the Booplinth (and threaten me) on the Linn forum. A slightly disproportionate response, you might think.

I re-read Tom's original post and it didn't strike me as in any way out of character. I thought from memory that perhaps he'd been a bit harsh reference the Booplinth finish but reading it again it seemed reasonable. I don't know Tom very well but would be amazed if he'd let his fondness of Woodsong influence his verdict.

[David Neel]

Charlie,

I was disappointed in ThomasOK's review because I had previously agreed with his findings, and was therefore surprised that on this we were poles apart - I don't dispute his right to say what he sees fit, and he was certainly not one of those who were abusive.

My main point, however, was that we should not be sheep whose opinions and buying choices are influenced by forum "experts", unless we also go and listen for ourselves. And we should certainly not denigrate products without hearing them. I would not comment on the Stiletto because I haven't heard it. There's something rather contradictory in believing in tunedem (just listen) and then being swayed by other people's opinions.

[Charlie1]

I agree it's bad form to denigrate a product you've not heard yourself simply because someone else has heard it and doesn't like it. I think if someone chooses to be influenced by their opinion then that's their choice, but to criticise a product you've not heard yourself is not right, no matter how much you respect another's opinion.

[beck]

My main point, however, was that we should not be sheep whose opinions and buying choices are influenced by forum "experts", unless we also go and listen for ourselves. And we should certainly not denigrate products without hearing them. I would not comment on the Stiletto because I haven't heard it. There's something rather contradictory in believing in tunedem (just listen) and then being swayed by other people's opinions.

As being one of those who try not to act like a "sheep" I can say that we have to focus on what makes us enjoy listening to music to get real satisfaction from our system and music collection.
It can be difficult because one has to put "bling" and other peoples comments aside.

On the other hand we all need some guidance to get "there" and with my latest experiences with my own system it is easy for me to spot the many ways one can be mislead.

It is not easy to know if the "next big thing" will make you even happier. What we can focus on is how much enjoyment we get out of our system as it is and react if we feel something is not right.

[ThomasOK]

David, I am sorry to hear you were rubbished on the Linn forum. I'm afraid that it has become a bit "chummy" with different cliques that seem to like to disparage those they don't agree with. I was certainly on the receiving end when I posted the first negative review of the Khan some while back.

However, I have to say that I find it questionable that you then and denigrate the veracity of my review just because it doesn't agree with your findings. An "element of conflict"? What might that have been? A little common sense would indicate that there is little economic incentive in recommending a $1000 Woodsong plinth over a $2400 Booplinth, and much less in stating that I also felt the stock Linn Walnut was superior. Note also that I have not rated all Harban plinths highly, just those I have found most musical.

I installed and auditioned the Booplinth the same way I do anything else - trying to make the comparison as fair and exact as possible. For the record I installed the Booplinth the way I would any new LP12 item I haven't heard before - by listening to a range of torques to determine what is most musical. I also contacted Booplinth and asked if they had any special recommendations on torques or other setup changes. Their reply was that it should be set up just like any stock Linn plinth. I found that the torques were very similar to any other wood plinth with just the nut for the motor stud being one notch different. I actually auditioned with both that setting and the one I use on other plinths just to follow the Booplinth advice to the letter. When I reset that torque I also went over the rest of the setup just to make sure everything was as it should be. One customer who had me fitting a Movingui plinth today, and who heard the Booplinth, mentioned something I had forgotten: When I received the Booplinth I did not do my normal tap tone test to it as I knew laminated bamboo would be quite different from solid hardwoods and I did not want to prejudice my listening by it. He was impressed that I would go that far to give it a fair chance.

I was a bit surprised as well that you did like it. I suspect the only way we would find out why would be for your and my turntables to be in the same place at the same tie so that they could be compared and we could see whether or not we agreed on which was the most musical. I'm not sure where you live but I will, as mentioned elsewhere, be displaying at the RMAF in Denver this October and you are welcome to bring your LP12 in t do a comparison. Or bring it to Michigan sometime if it is more convenient. Otherwise I expect it will remain a mystery.

[David Neel]

Thomas, I did not comment on or challenge your review at the time, as I saw no point in claiming that I'm a better judge of musicality than you. I said I was disappointed, not that you were wrong. I raised the possibility of conflict, you have answered that, and I'm happy to accept your answer that this was not the case.

But I did have very different experiences when I heard Booplinth, which is why I bought one. And yes, I used tunedem. I have also seriously considered other third party products, only to reject them on tunedem - the Khan and a well-hyped tonearm. I'm in the UK, which makes a direct comparison with your LP12 impossible, but I am still curious to understand the gap between our perceptions.

My key point remains that internet forums are tricky places (this one much less than most, I think) and that we should all keep an open mind until we have "just listened".

[ThomasOK]

I didn't remember that you were in the UK. There is one thing I have talked about on here before but I think it bears repeating in the context of this thread. Of course, it would be best if everyone could listen to all the alternatives and you are in an enviable position to do so. But markets outside of the UK are quite different and the US market is very different. For starters, the last reports I heard were that the US accounts for only about 6% of Linn's total sales. There are several reasons for this from Linn canning the best distributor in the US and trying to do it themselves, to some reviewers being somewhat xenophobic and others just not liking Ivor, to a lack of consistent representation through dealers. From those sales figures it should be obvious that hardly anybody over here does the kind of business with Linn that the larger dealers in the UK do. Therefore there is not the amount of demonstration equipment available on the floor of US dealers in general. Then there is the problem of geographic size and the paucity of Linn dealers in the US. Here is a good example. The state our store is in, Michigan, is slightly larger in land ares than all of the UK! How many Linn dealers are there in the UK? According to the Linn site 62 and from comments on the Linn forum there must be at least a quarter of them that have received recommendations. How many are there in Michigan? One. To take that further Indiana and Illinois are neighboring states to Michigan neither of which have a Linn dealer (that's right, Chicago - the third largest city in the US - has no Linn dealer). Put those three together an you have over double the area of the UK. I could even expand it farther as there is little or no coverage in several more states bordering on those and I have customers who drive from farther away because they have no dealer. But you get the idea: one dealer vs. 62 in an era over twice as large. If you want to go by population instead of land area it is not as bad. However, those three states have almost half the population of the UK so Linn is still obviously underrepresented. What all this means is that listening to all these variations and possibilities for yourself is just not an option for most people over here.

[u252agz]

We are indeed fortunate to have so many Linn dealers in the UK:

It is however one thing having a local dealer; but to have one who has a good ear for musicality, a fanatical obsession with detail and the time to set up systems properly is different matter altogether. And that is before issues such as maximizing sales profits etc etc coming into the equation.

With the exception of the Linn/Lejonklou dealers in the UK - I am very wary of demonstrations in retail outlets and have a list as long as my arm of times I have been disappointed with various Linn products in varying premises , only to later discover that when correctly installed and correctly partnered they are usually very, very good.

There is a great deal to be said for a good Forum where a number of contributers have the ears and the obsession with detail and honesty that make their opinions really very useful.

I have learned over the last few years that is quicker, easier and for me, much more enjoyable to harness these collective opinions and order, without the trials and tribulations of 'in store' demos.

[Charlie1]

I have learned over the last few years that is quicker, easier and for me, much more enjoyable to harness these collective opinions and order, without the trials and tribulations of 'in store' demos.

I don't blame you. In fact, I think I've moved more in that direction myself now. The playground thread has been very educational. Not only has it highlighted a misguided use of tunedem over the past 3-4 years (on my part), but it's also confirmed that what I like to get out my music is aligned to the likes of yourself, Beck, Fredrik and Tom. I'm not saying that I should purchase without listening but where the comparison is difficult, such as plinths and top plates, then I am happy to be led by a few specific individuals.

[matthias]

I have learned over the last few years that is quicker, easier and for me, much more enjoyable to harness these collective opinions and order, without the trials and tribulations of 'in store' demos.

+1
A good example of this procedure are the JBL3677s.
Based on the opinion of some well respected members of this forum who understand the tune method, some others bought these speakers without listening to them before.
I can imagine to do the same.

Matt