Sonic speaker preference

[Lego]

Assuming tune capabilities were up to scratch would your ultimate loudspeakers sound as if the musicians were in your room or sound as if you are at the venue ie concert hall recording studio etc.

[ThomasOK]

I would have to say that it would depend on how the recording was made. If it was recorded and mastered to sound like the musicians are in the room then that is how it should sound. If recorded to put you in the venue then it should sound like that.

I feel that the best speakers do not put their own signature or sound on the music. Just like the best of other components they let as much of the music through as possible with as little adulteration as possible. When this happens the overall "sound" of the music is totally controlled by the production and mastering - if they did their job right you will hear wonderful music regardless of the perspective recorded. Any speaker that actually imparts a certain perspective on all music is simply distorting everything in order to produce a certain quality to the sound. I find speakers that are designed like this to be uninvolving and sometimes unlistenable despite the fact that some of them are quite expensive and well reviewed (certain Wilsons and B&Ws come to mind)

[Lego]

Yes I know Thomas but what would you prefer?

[Music Lover]

I find speakers that are designed like this to be uninvolving and sometimes unlistenable despite the fact that some of them are quite expensive and well reviewed (certain Wilsons and B&Ws come to mind)

Some B&W's are quite OK.
Trouble is that most manufactures lack the consistently regarding musicality. Some models are OK, some are good but some are awful...

btw, I prefer the "live sound".

[cremona]

The best music experince I have ever had was all linn klimax and unidisk 1.1 and sonus faber Cremona speakers.
Did it sound like live music ? no it sounded better.

I have had a few somwhat similar experinces with live music but the klimax system through the cremonas sounded like i was in a beautiful dream where angels where singing to me, it was the closest thing to magic i have experinced in my life.
It gave me the same feeling as falling in love.

Some time later I stumbled over this mans similar experince.

I, for one am a recent convert to the Linn camp myself. I was bewitched this past spring. In search of new speakers, I ventured outside of metropolitan Detroit, westward to Ann Arbor where I had not pestered the audio dealers there for almost 20 years since finishing medical school.

I wandered into Overture Audio on South Main Street whereupon I experienced an audio epiphany. I listened to Sonus Faber Cremona speakers with Linn Klimax Kontrol preamp and Klimax Solo monoblocks and a CD 12 frontend. I went back a few weeks later to make sure the experience had staying power. Although, the CD 12 and Solo monoblocks had been replaced by Unidisc 2.1 and Klimax Twin (then), the experience overall of luscious fantastic audio was not diminished by substitution of the lesser powered single chassis amplifier or the non-reference CD front end.

I was bowled over by the sound. I was also very impressed with the stylish low profile of the components producing it. Subsequently, I decided to go for the gusto purchasing new Klimax Kontrol and Solo amps in addition to the Cremona speakers. Subsequently, I've purchased a Linn LP12/Lingo/Linto/Ittok/Akiva and found a previously owned CD12 and now have an amazing sounding system.




here is A franco serblin inteview the man behind sonus faber



"My aim is to arrive at a musical instrument."

So said Franco Serblin, designer of the Sonus Faber loudspeakers, as we talked last fall at the 2002 TOP Audio/Video show in Milan. He continued:

"It is usual in hi-fi to say, 'Ah, incredibly good sound, just like live.' But no—my idea is different. My idea is that it is possible to invent new emotions in terms of sound reproduction.

"Sometimes it is possible—with a good speaker, careful setup, and a high-quality amplifier—to experience a different perception of a piece of music than you would have when listening live. With a Beethoven piano sonata, for instance, you might have a more intense emotional experience with a recording than a live performance. It is for this reason that I continue to believe in hi-fi."

Franco is not your usual speaker designer. He talks more about music than measurements, more about producing musical instruments than loudspeakers. His Homage series of speakers are named after the legendary Italian violin makers Guarneri, Amati, and Stradivari. The Strad will be a luxury model and will likely cost more than some luxury cars.

[vicdiaz]

Cremona,

I just found out that there is a Sonus-Faber dealer not far from where I work!!!

I'll take a quick listen to them sometime this week and see what''s all the rave about them!!!

[Music Lover]

Did it sound like live music ? no it sounded better.

In what way better?

[Music Lover]

"It is usual in hi-fi to say, 'Ah, incredibly good sound, just like live.' But no—my idea is different. My idea is that it is possible to invent new emotions in terms of sound reproduction.

"Sometimes it is possible—with a good speaker, careful setup, and a high-quality amplifier—to experience a different perception of a piece of music than you would have when listening live. With a Beethoven piano sonata, for instance, you might have a more intense emotional experience with a recording than a live performance. It is for this reason that I continue to believe in hi-fi."

How do you invent and add emotions? :roll:
Cremona, do you have more info regarding what he refers to?

[Lego]

I would have to say that it would depend on how the recording was made. If it was recorded and mastered to sound like the musicians are in the room then that is how it should sound. If recorded to put you in the venue then it should sound like that.

I agree Thomas and sometimes its neither.I remember when listening to the Akiva at home for the first time and one of the things I noticed was that It was easier to recognise a particular musicians style of playing and their instrument(easy with 50s -mid 60s jazz albums) on heavily produced/engineered albums.Its almost as if better sources cuts through the production and treats it as another veil we dont need similar to the way scratches and clicks are treated on records.

Lets not get carried away chaps, after all this hifi thing is just one big aural illusion

[cremona]

Did it sound like live music ? no it sounded better.

In what way better?

In that you have a more powerfull emotional experince then you would listning to it live.

[cremona]

"It is usual in hi-fi to say, 'Ah, incredibly good sound, just like live.' But no—my idea is different. My idea is that it is possible to invent new emotions in terms of sound reproduction.

"Sometimes it is possible—with a good speaker, careful setup, and a high-quality amplifier—to experience a different perception of a piece of music than you would have when listening live. With a Beethoven piano sonata, for instance, you might have a more intense emotional experience with a recording than a live performance. It is for this reason that I continue to believe in hi-fi."

How do you invent and add emotions? :roll:
Cremona, do you have more info regarding what he refers to?

Franco serblin of sonus faber beleives strongly that music is a art form that has high emotional powers.

He dossent see his speakers as a neutral monitor but as musical instruments for experincing musical emotions, and is created with that in mind.


Maybe a bit like the italian`s answer to speaker tunedem


One of the key areas where my sonus faber cremona speakers really shine is in the way the drivers speak as close to one voice as i have ever heard, infact it reminds me of when you stroke a chord on a well designed akustik guitar, just like one of my martin guitars , and that infact is one of things franco strives with in his designs , to make the speakers drivers speak in complet synagi, and thats proberly also way the offen take many years to make.
That is one of the corner stones to why the are musical , nothing sticks out the music is not ripped apart and overfocused on the topend like wilson speakers fks.
And cause of this extreme case of driver synagi , i swere with voices it somtimes sounds like the speakers itself is singing.

Sonus faber is from the same areas as the old violins builders , amati guanerri, stradivarius, i beleive the city is called cremona.
Sonus faber are inspired by many of the old cabinet technics, the elipsa speaker shape is orginal a sonus faber
design the dates back to 93 with the guaneri homage and have been duplicated by just about every speaker manufactor ever since.
The wood work and finish seen in the homage line is several hundred years old technices that only few people on earth can preform


Italians have a way with wood work and atension to detajl and finish that really shows with sonus faber speakers.

There is a catch franco serblin wich is the man behind sonus faber left the company some years ago after he finished the 40 k stradivarious speaker and all speakers sonus have produced since that
(CREMONA M ELIPSA ) do not have the magic enymore, there are mass produced and the dont spend much time on designing them.

When franco serblin designed speakers he found all the best drivers that where at the given time , typicaly from ,scanspeak,vifa SEAS, DYNAUDIO, and then found the best and then used several years on moddifing them allowing him to design the simples most musical crossover design possible.
Mostly 1 order design or in some cases no crossover at all. :roll:


The best speakers he made was the guaneri, the Extrema(no crossover) , the amati homage and my personaly favorit the Cremona.(not the new m version)

The cremona was 3 years in the making it uses all moddfied Scanspeak revelator drivers wich is argubaly the best dynamic drivers in the world , 1 order crossover using all mundorf supreme components.
The midrange is pure magic , topend is sweet yet extremly detajld but ironicly never gets tireing,bass is very deep and tune full and very dynamic and explosiv , the cremona has very rytmic and tunefull music presentation that is very feet tapping, wich i beleive is traced back to its simpelicity of its crossover and design wich is infact known to be very pitch and timeing akurate.

Its also a singel wire design because biwire only introduces more complications.

But the dont do it by them self the will sound horrbly slow almost muddy, with lesser wrongly matched gear , the are extremly responsiv to the gear used to drive them .

Tonal vice the are a littel euphonic , maby a trifel varm, midrange has and almost weet nature , the linn klimax gear is the opposit , dry, ultra transperant , bright, yet the share the same emotional and musical powers, taken together magical synagi .

[lejonklou]

It almost sounds like you are working for Sonus Faber, cremona...

I think the main question people are asking here, is: How can a speaker improve the signal it is fed?

I regard 'by creating a more powerful emotional experience' as an inadequate explanation, as it is entirely subjective. The same argument could be used for almost any kind of signal coloration or alteration.

If we regard the claim with the Tune Method as a reference, I would say I can't think of any way that a speaker could make an instrument or a voice sound more in tune than it does in real life.

Franco Serblin can improve reality in his interviews, but not with his speakers. No matter how excellent they may be (I have only heard a few).

[lejonklou]

Lets not get carried away chaps, after all this hifi thing is just one big aural illusion

Agreed!

[cremona]

It almost sounds like you are working for Sonus Faber, cremona...

I think the main question people are asking here, is: How can a speaker improve the signal it is fed?

I regard 'by creating a more powerful emotional experience' as an inadequate explanation, as it is entirely subjective. The same argument could be used for almost any kind of signal coloration or alteration.

If we regard the claim with the Tune Method as a reference, I would say I can't think of any way that a speaker could make an instrument or a voice sound more in tune than it does in real life.

Franco Serblin can improve reality in his interviews, but not with his speakers. No matter how excellent they may be (I have only heard a few).

Well if you ever have the chance to go listen to the ORG Cremonas driven with all linn klimax gear you might hear somthing that will change your mind obout that.

But it cant be said clear enourgh the the will Not sound heavenly by them self .
I have heard most sonus fabers and the all sound different, different enough to say that the real synagi lies between the Cremona speakers and linn .
I have heard the cremonas several places and with several of different amplifires and frontends and the sound differences was night and day.
Some places it sounded rather bad.

When i heard them with linn klimax i experinced my music being presended in a way that caused a fysical reaction .
Somkind of magical musical delerium , it wassent just the baffaling amazing sound kvality but the in the way the music was so influence with emotion and feelings.
I have only experinced somthing like that before in relations to a woman.

Im a musician and frequent concert atender , and i have yet to experince enything remotly like klimax /sonus faber in a large and akusticaly prober room.

Yeah yeah i know im going a bit overboat here but that was what happent :shock: .

For those that preform it knows Music is all about emotion , and eny true music lover will agree, your are absolutly right that the the speaker cant recreat a signal its not being fead, but the speaker is the tranductor that fysicaly recreats the music and have the most aparant influence on have the music will sound.


There is no reason why you cant create a speaker that will enhance the emotional experince when you listen to music , just as its possible to create hifi amplifires ,sources that enhance those aspekts, or shall i say destord the music to a lesser extend.
And thats the key hear the sonus faber Cremonas builds on the things that distords the music to a lesser extend and enhances them creating a even more emotioonal sound then the real thing.

The are litarly thousinds are sonus faber entusiasts out there,(or franco serblin fans to be more exact) and the will all know exactly what i mean here.
Just like linn fans know what you mean when you say that a linn source sounds musical.
And as with linn the are those that love it and those that dont understand it.

I invite enyone to come here and hear for yourself what i mean about the cremonas are singing :)

[cremona]

After i experinced the Cremona / klimax magic for myself i wrote to a well regarded sonus faber and linn dealer just to check if the experince was real.

here is what the wrote .

We have had the opportunity to hear and to deliver multiple systems with Linn electronics and Sonus Faber "Cremona" speakers. We would recommend using a Linn source (Lp-12 or Unidisk 1.1) into a Klimax Kontrol, and into Klimax Solo or Twin amplification. The combination has an unheralded musicality, that must be experienced to be believed. The Linn amplifiers have the power, and more importantly the fidelity and resolution to make the most of a good source with well matched speakers. Please let us know what preamplifier you are planning to use in your system. The Linn Klimax amplifiers will work with a variety or preamps. If you have any further questions, please call or e-mail us .

[Music Lover]

Was that the Oslo Linn dealer?
I know he sell SF..

[lejonklou]

your are absolutly right that the the speaker cant recreat a signal its not being fead

There is no reason why you cant create a speaker that will enhance the emotional experince when you listen to music...

In my opinion, you are contradicting yourself in the above. Unless you believe that the emotion in the music comes from how it sounds, as opposed to from the musical message.

...just as its possible to create hifi amplifires ,sources that enhance those aspekts

Not possible either, I say. Any link in the chain can only reduce the quality of the incoming signal, never improve it. The sound can be changed (to your liking or not, that is entirely subjective), but the musical message can never be improved.

If that was the case, you would be talking about a human loudspeaker that actively makes a new interpretation of what is being played.

[cremona]

your are absolutly right that the the speaker cant recreat a signal its not being fead

There is no reason why you cant create a speaker that will enhance the emotional experince when you listen to music...

In my opinion, you are contradicting yourself in the above. Unless you believe that the emotion in the music comes from how it sounds, as opposed to from the musical message.

...just as its possible to create hifi amplifires ,sources that enhance those aspekts

Not possible either, I say. Any link in the chain can only reduce the quality of the incoming signal, never improve it. The sound can be changed (to your liking or not, that is entirely subjective), but the musical message can never be improved.

If that was the case, you would be talking about a human loudspeaker that actively makes a new interpretation of what is being played.

No it was speakers corner in copenhagen.

But yes contrapunkt sells both sonus faber and linn it was infact odd rune that sold me my solos.


I beleive music is build apone emotion.

Answering the questian what would be the perfect amp/source system for recreating as much of the musical emotion from the music piece being replayed, I would say a source and amp that is as neutal as possibel.
Not just the tonal balance but musicaly neutral, and of all the hifi gear i have been exposed to linn is the best , or destords the music least.

If we create a the perfect neutral speaker it would recreate that emotion and music .

but since the speaker is a fysical moveing tranductor just like a instrument i think its wrong viewing it as being abel to preform 100%neutral , because its fysical impossibel (and to my ears the more the designer strives after that goal the more analytical , steril and borring the musica becomes but thats a nother matter)
So why try limiting the speakers preformans to only being neutral, why not work with the music instead.



but if you view the speaker itself as a part of the music replay , and not just a neutral monitor for the music could it become a instrument ? could we evoke new higes of musical emotion, then what is allready on the recording ?

Franco serblin would say YES .

I have several akustik instruments and the one that sounds the best is my martin d series , when im playing on that one i dont need a band, Hard to explain but the designer diffently used his ears very cleverly when desiging it.

Maybe its impossible to explain but when i listen to my cremonas, driven by the klimaxes i hear it , and as with everyhing there is a explanation and that explanation is exactly what franco serblin, and Ivor speaks of.

Besides that it dossent take a lot of googling to find out that franco serblin is possible the most admired and respekted speaker designers this world have yet seen.

Look at the eliptic curves on the linn klimax speakers its a pure copy of what franco serblin adapted in the later 80`s after being inspired of the shapes of akustisk instrumets becaue it eleminates the internal vibrations in the speaker cabinet.

[Lego]

I'd like to apologize 'Sonic speaker preference' was the wrong title choice for this topic.I mean we don't want to encourage evangelizing do we? :lol:

[lejonklou]

You are avoiding my point, cremona. Music is a language. The loudspeaker can not add quality to what is being expressed in that language any more than your telephone can add quality to your conversation.

Sound is what carries the musical language. You can alter it in many ways, which can degrade or even ruin the message being transmitted, but never improve it.

This fundamental difference between sound and music is what the Tune Method is based on.

[cremona]

You are avoiding my point, cremona. Music is a language. The loudspeaker can not add quality to what is being many ways, you can ruin the message being transmitted, but never expressed in that language any more than your telephone can add quality to your conversation.

Sound is what carries the musical language. You can alter it in improve it.

This fundamental difference between sound and music is what the Tune Method is based on. Are you familiar with the Tune Method?

Im very familiar with the tunedem method, infact reasonly just for fun i bourgt a nordost frey interconnect pretty cheap secondhand , just to here what it would do.
ANd ges what the linn silvers had better tunedem and that equals more musical sound .
Its was simply easyer to follow the tune the silvers.´

(Enyone want to buy a frey i m rca p mail me ?)

I understand your viewpoint perfectly and that it is a fundamental technical explanation wich linn holds high.


But in my oppinion the actual musical preformans of a hifi system is Not only limited by the source material.
Various speaker designs sound wildly
different .
Yes the source signal is still the same but it is the speaker that makes the sound and unless you intend to listen purely to solo instruments you can create the speaker to act out the music in a surthen way.

If you put 10 modernday sources and compare them through the same speaker the difference in the playback will be absolutly obliberated compared to have 10 different speakers will sound with the same source.
Speaker designs varis to the extreme so do the sound.



the source is the key to the musicality thats true, but ultimatly its the speaker wich have to recreate it.

And this is the essece of what im saying, there are surthen comnunicating aspekts of the actual music playback wich the speaker is responsibel of (and i hope we agree that various speaker designs sound diffrent being feed with the same source ?) .
And its thise emotional comunication aspekts franco serblins uses to create a speaker not limited by what the orginal signal sounds like.

Italians are obssesd with have it makes you feel more then enything else and are very passionated about it, and franco serblin is diffently one of them.


Maybe i havent pointed it out clear enourg or the various comments on the cremona/linn paring havent been noticed as it was intended, but the magic is NOT just the cremonas its the linn source And the cremonas.


Lets put the thorys aside because we will not get eny thurther then agree to disagree .

By the way ever heard a top notch studio monitor system with your source of choice ? if you like the sound DONT buy a sonus faber-


:)

[Azazello]

As we all know by now; the most important rule to this forum is the use of the tune method.

I have no reason to doubt that Sonus Faber are good speakers, but when discussing them (or any other component) we should stick to their performance relative to other speakers, preferably judged by A/B comparisons , but always with tune method as the decisive rule.

Philosophical discussions about weather a HiFi - system can improve the original performance or not do not have a sub-forum here, and there is a reason for that ;)

[lejonklou]

I think Franco Serblins comments regarding speakers are interesting but ultimately false. The division between electronics and mechanics is also a mistake. It would mean that synthesizers are not proper musical instruments (which they are) but that turntables are (which they are not).

Ok, mr moderator, I will try leaving this subject.

I do love when discussions go a bit off the beaten track, though! :)

[cremona]

If you take 10 modernday sources and compare the musical experince through the same speaker the difference in the playback will be absolutly obliberated compared to have 10 different designed speakers will sound with the same source.
Speaker designs varis to the extreme so do there way of presending the music

Ok it leave alone now :lol:

I love my sonus fabers but its linn eletronics that brings the best out of them.

All the best

[Music Lover]

yes, speakers affect the sound a lot. (but the musicality the least)
I fully understand that you can get in love with a specific "speaker sound".
Some to such a degree that they are prepared to sacrifice the musicality a bit.

I've been in love with SF speaker design for years and discussed with the Norwegian Linn dealer 2005 regarding SF vs Linn speakers.
He consider Amanti just a little bit less musical/transparent than 242. A great result.
But I'm in love in the Linn active speaker sound