Emotion in Music

[Charlie1]

What upgrades have members done that stand out in their memory as having made their listening more emotional?

I'm asking cos in truth it's not been the ones I would have expected. I would have thought Radikal and Keel but actually I'd say it was the Ekos SE and to a lesser extent the Akiva. And the LP12 itself of course, plus getting good setup, particularly the LP12 and speakers.

Other upgrades and tweaks across the HiFi chain have made things more tuneful and/or removed a lot of crud but no others greatly stand out in my mind as having made music significantly more heartfelt than those listed above.

If talking about tunefulness and ability to follow the music ONLY then yes, LP12 itself, Radikal and Keel are without doubt my biggest upgrades.

[David Neel]

It perhaps depends on how we define emotion. For me, I can't really separate emotion from tunefulness - better tunedem results in better access to the performer, results in more emotional connection. That said, moving from Kans to 109s was interesting, as the Kans are a very "emotional" speaker, the 109s perhaps more cerebral. But there is now no way I'd go back, as the 109s greater calmness and insight allow me better (deeper?) emotional connection, rather than the "excitement" of the Kans.

[Charlie1]

It perhaps depends on how we define emotion. For me, I can't really separate emotion from tunefulness - better tunedem results in better access to the performer, results in more emotional connection.

This is also what I believe yet in practice it's not entirely worked that way for me. Close but not 100%. I certainly think it's the best way to develop a product or make comparisons cos you don't know how it sounded in the studio etc. Some members have related that their Tundra/Sagatun has been like a source upgrade and more emotional. Perhaps they are improving a specific area in addition to overall tunefulness.

That said, moving from Kans to 109s was interesting, as the Kans are a very "emotional" speaker, the 109s perhaps more cerebral. But there is now no way I'd go back, as the 109s greater calmness and insight allow me better (deeper?) emotional connection, rather than the "excitement" of the Kans.

As a long-time Kan owner I know what you mean. I don't think I'd trade the Kans for 109s either. My idea of emotional connection is not excitement as such. I mean something that plays at your heart strings. I just listened to Red Rain by Peter Gabriel. Towards the end, Tony Levin on bass repeats a succession of notes at speed - da, da, da, darrr - da, da, da, darrr. Somehow it really gets me and ties in with the mood and emotional power of that song.

[beck]

Yes, I own that record too and find the ending very emotional. Have it my head right now!:-). I think you could say: "follow that tune" and end up with the most emotional system you can get if you do it the way we try to do in the "playground" tread.

[Music Lover]

Some members have related that their Tundra/Sagatun has been like a source upgrade and more emotional. Perhaps they are improving a specific area in addition to overall tunefulness.

When I make that statement = it's a big enhancement in performance. As big as you normally find making a source upgrade. (I know more people use that analogy)
Has nothing to do with the character of the sound.

As a side note - when I write about performance it's always regarding musicality not the way it sounds. Hence normally adding my thoughts regarding sound afterwards.

[Music Lover]

better tunedem results in better access to the performer, results in more emotional connection.

Yes, but not necessarily the other way around.

[ThomasOK]

better tunedem results in better access to the performer, results in more emotional connection.

Yes, but not necessarily the other way around.

+1
I have mentioned in another thread that going for most emotional connection can lead you the wrong way as it is influenced too much by your state mind (or more accurately state of heart) while listening. Whereas following the tune method will lead you in the right direction, which results in a more emotionally connecting system.

I have to say that I would put the Radikal in this league but I do feel that there is a definite synergy in the Radikal, Keel, Ekos SE and Trampolin 2 that makes the whole even better than the sum of the parts. I think your finding here also might have to do with the order in which you did the upgrades. If you did the Ekos SE after the Radikal and Keel then the way they all tie together might lead to the finding Charlie1 had. Since I bought the Keel, Ekos SE and Trampolin 2 when they came out and then bought the Radikal and Urika as soon as they were released, it was the Radikal that, so to speak, completed the synergy.

In my experience I have to say that the Sagatun Monos brought one of the most involving and connected feelings to the system of any change I have made. When I first had them in the store with Tundra Monos I found the music playing through them so good that it would call my attention form the other room and pull me into the listening room. I still find it has that effect. Just last week I lent out the store demo Sagatun 1.1 to a customer for home audition. I didn't want to go back to lesser sound in our large studio so I connected up my personal demo Sagatun Mono 1.1s to the Tundra 1.2 in there that was fed by a KDS/1 and loaded LP12 and drives a pair of Majik Isobariks. As soon as I connected the Sagatun Monos and started a playlist going I wanted to stay and listen to whatever track was being played. Several days on it still catches my attention regularly and pulls me toward that room.

[Charlie1]

In my experience I have to say that the Sagatun Monos brought one of the most involving and connected feelings to the system of any change I have made.

Isn't this similar to my Ekos SE experience? The Radikal might have offered the biggest boost in tunefulness but an upgrade further down the hierarchy has stuck with you in its ability to convey not only tunefulness but some 'other' quality.

I agree mood is a factor when it comes to emotional response. Maybe it was the way I was at that time. Although a friend of mine reported broadly similar findings with the SE but could be coincidence.

Also agree, perhaps it would have been different without the Keel in place - this was all prior to Radikal.

[u252agz]

better tunedem results in better access to the performer, results in more emotional connection.

Yes, but not necessarily the other way around.

+1


In my experience I have to say that the Sagatun Monos brought one of the most involving and connected feelings to the system of any change I have made. When I first had them in the store with Tundra Monos I found the music playing through them so good that it would call my attention form the other room and pull me into the listening room. I still find it has that effect. Just last week I lent out the store demo Sagatun 1.1 to a customer for home audition. I didn't want to go back to lesser sound in our large studio so I connected up my personal demo Sagatun Mono 1.1s to the Tundra 1.2 in there that was fed by a KDS/1 and loaded LP12 and drives a pair of Majik Isobariks. As soon as I connected the Sagatun Monos and started a playlist going I wanted to stay and listen to whatever track was being played. Several days on it still catches my attention regularly and pulls me toward that room.

In my very limited experience of upgrades, I agree with Thomas OK.

The Sagatun Monos are remarkable in their ability to engage you with the music and provide the emotional component that demands you just listen to the music - even from an adjoining room.

The source upgrades KRDS/0 through to KDS/2 ( and RP3 to Mjik LP12) have all brought much more musicality, and with it, more emotion and engagement ( as well as sound parameters improving) - but the Sagatun Monos' ability to really engage and emotionally connect you to the music is in a different dimension.

Losing the Sagatuns to the DVC on the KDS/2 ( very good in itself at 50-60 volumes) was therefore really unpleasant and conversely getting them back ( as 1.1s) was a revelation.

I did find the Tundra Mono 2 upgrade improved musicality and engagement, but more like one of the above source upgrades as compared to the Sagatun Mono.

[macrotech2]

Having just replaced my KK1/D with Sagatun Monos, I wholeheartedly agree with the comments made about them. They are remarkable in their ability to reproduce any track thrown at them in a more musical and compelling way than anything I have heard before (and I bought my first serious hi-fi in 1980). I did the Tundra Mono 2 upgrade a while ago and this was a similar level of improvement for me.

Whereas Linn now seem to be striving for the musical equivalent of an over sharpened photograph, Fredrik's kit presents music in a very natural way, not overemphasising any particular component, retaining fantastic flow and the subtle nuances of each instrument's notes and how they are being played. So much of this nuancing and flow was just not there in the Linn kit, which sounds sterile and lacking emotion in comparison.

Just listen to practically any female voice through Lejonklou amps to experience emotion!

[u252agz]

With Sagatun Monos - all else becomes irrelevant: the bass, treble, mids, soundstaging and even the despairing voice from the other room telling you that the kids need picking up from school!

One just listens to the music, dumbfounded that recorded music can do this to you.

It's actually quite difficult to concentrate on the parameters mentioned above, whilst listening, but if one does everything is indeed much better.

I agree Female vocals are just amazing - and totally compelling.

[macrotech2]

Yep it is very difficult to put into words just how musical Lejonklou amps are, but I think you nailed it by saying that any hi-fi considerations are completely irrelevant. Just sit back, relax and enjoy!

[Ozzzy189]

Having just replaced my KK1/D with Sagatun Monos, I wholeheartedly agree with the comments made about them. They are remarkable in their ability to reproduce any track thrown at them in a more musical and compelling way than anything I have heard before (and I bought my first serious hi-fi in 1980). I did the Tundra Mono 2 upgrade a while ago and this was a similar level of improvement for me.

Whereas Linn now seem to be striving for the musical equivalent of an over sharpened photograph, Fredrik's kit presents music in a very natural way, not overemphasising any particular component, retaining fantastic flow and the subtle nuances of each instrument's notes and how they are being played. So much of this nuancing and flow was just not there in the Linn kit, which sounds sterile and lacking emotion in comparison.

Just listen to practically any female voice through Lejonklou amps to experience emotion!

I love the over sharpened photo quote, bang on imo.
Can I say 'I told you so' now? I keep a much lower profile these days as occasionally I get a bit over excited by Fred's products, but I suppose that's a good thing in a way, they convey emotions and musicality unmatched by anything I've heard costing far more.

[macrotech2]

Ozzy - I think I'm joining you going OTT but Fredrik's amps really are astounding! As for "I told you so" i knew all along. I just had to find the time and dosh to continue the journey. :-)

[u252agz]

Yesterday, I picked up a vinyl recording of Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong ( Ella and Louis - Verve records 1956. 180 gm) from my newsagents of all places.

Wow - talk about emotion ; this recording has it in spades. I was spellbound

And this with a lowly Majik LP12, Gaio and a set of Monos .

I shudder to think what a fully specced LP12 would do to this album.

[Charlie1]

I keep a much lower profile these days as occasionally I get a bit over excited by Fred's products

I think it's only natural to want to share enthusiasm and excitement for something with other people. Is it fair to say that you don't want other people to miss out on all the fun you're having?

I've had a few moments over the years. Can't recall what, probably things like tunedem and speaker positioning. You want to share your enjoyment and the benefits you're experiencing and yet if you go on too much you feel like you're either boring people or coming across like some religious crackpot. I never feel like that on this forum btw. It's certainly not always easy to always strike the right balance though. Mind you, I would have thought you can go wild all day long on the Lejonklou forum enthusing about Lejonklou products :)

[Efraim roots]

For me and things hifi I’ve had that sensation a few times and I would say it occurred when I bought my first naim amplifier the little chrome bumper nait 1, suddenly I was up and dancing, the groove of the rhythms was so right! The next real big thing was when I bought Radikal and Harmoni rack ’Tor’ and got an proper installation by Anders at Tonläget at the same time, when he left the system was just something else, it sounded twice as big and powerful and very tuneful in a ’earthy’ way. Next up is definitely the LP12 setup with torque tool by Lejonklou himself, a whole new level of musical flow was revealed. After that I must add Naim NAC 52, It was the naim preamp I had been looking for since I first heard the original nait.

So the recipe for me seems to be LP12 upgrades and setup, proper installation incl. rack and the best of naim amps. This is all analog to the tune method results except in the case of naim amps, I’m pretty sure the Linn Kolektor / LK140 amps I had when I got the nait 1 would be better when doing a tune dem, but still they left me cold. Also my NAC 52 / NAP 110 gave me the musical experience, and even tho Klimax Kontrol and Tundra 2 which I have at present is better, that ultimate connection is absent, these conclusions lasts and is repeatable. The ’naim’ problem, I think, is that if you have not had that experience yourself you simply do not know why naim is good. Mark carefully that I’m not talking about a ’naim' experience, I’m talking about a music experience. And I actually believe that the naim sound is all about this experience from the beginning, you don’t hear much about the tune method or similar from naim, I rather think that the sound was formed around the musical experience (according to JV), if an amplifier plays music so that it gives you the experience, it is good. And yes, it’s truly about heartfelt emotions, thru musical force and vibrations, these things holds powers, think earth, wind, water and fire. It’s a ’don’t feel your ass in the chair’ type of thing, or maybe ’being wooshed up’ by the musical wave. If you try to ”understand”, you’re lost. This trait can be found both high and low among naim amps, it has been like a pearl that settles in the chosen ones. Nowadays naim mostly seems lost when it comes to all this but they have it in their dna and their real qualities will show from time to time. I understand that the musical experience ’naim sound’ is all about is somewhat reductionistic, music is not only about the forces of creation, you also have the cerebral aspects and also more transcendental parts of music. The other way around it could be said that Linn amps is reductionistic, as they don’t recognize the real values of the forces of creation in music. Even if Linn amps is better it’s still like watching a well produced nature show on a big screen TV. Naim amps is like going out the yard, even tho the scenery is more modest you experience and feel of the sunshine hitting your face, the fresh air that vitales you and the comfort from the earth under your feet. When it comes to my personal love of music it has a lot to do with these things, heartfelt vibrations. My view is that it takes a fool to ignore the elemental and real values of these things. When it comes to the ’pearl’ I sincerely hope that it will be with Lejonklou soon enough.

[Charlie1]

Very interesting Efraim. I'd like to experience what you describe. Did you find the NAC 52 / NAP 110 worked for you equally across all musical genres? And did they sound fatiguing at all - sorry, it's just a common criticism aimed at Naim amps? And how come you have not gone back to that combo?

[Efraim roots]

If you want to experience what I describe I sugget you go to London tomorrow 16th of April and go to the dance with the mighty JAH SHAKA sound system, try to be there well into the session as it build up and the last tune is always special. I guess it will be a quite difficult acclimatization for you to be there and enjoy, but if you do well, it could be one of those memories. Jah Shaka is the high priest when it comes to the forces of creation in music, he knows all about the frequencies vibrations and rhythms. http://london.carpediem.cd/events/16926 ... bean-edge/

I do think there is some limitations in naim amps when it comes to different genres, but that's the same with Linn IMO, and yes, naim amps suits my favorite music. I can't go back as NAC 52 is too difficult to find, and the magic is gone since I had a fantastic Swedish sold example, I wouldn't know if another one would give me the same thing. The running cost of that level of naim amps is little to dear for me also, since service costs is high with such brutal powersupplys. I don't think they sound fatiguing, it was a fantastic thing having access to my ultimate experience of musical connection at home. With Linn I can sit for hours and listen and still don't get any experience. Note that I did not even once compromise with tune methods results when optimizing their setup, and this is key, shelfs, power cords, cable dressing and so on. The fact that not all naim amps is this special makes it a bit more difficult, bigger isn't always better, and aging isn't doing this situation any favors.

[Charlie1]

Not free this weekend but probably couldn't get my friends to join me anyway - thanks for the thought though.

I understand ref ageing amps and running costs.

It will be interesting to know if the Sagatun can deliver on both counts - i.e. tunefulness combined with the perceived NAC 52 / NAP 110 benefits.

[Efraim roots]

Actually I tried the Sagatun but it didn't really cut it as I preferred Klimax Kontrol. Tundra 2A on the other hand is very special IMHO, it's the kind of amp that vitalize the room, I promise your household plants will look stunning if you get a T2A :-) Sagatun Monos was also fantastic when I heard them at the launch event. For now I think I'll have to wait for a Lejonklou integrated, I predict that it will bring some debate which is better pre/power or integrated, and Lejonklou will get a lot of work improving the pre/power amps. To me Lejonklou amps leans towards a more transcendental 'dreamlike' musical experience, he should also go see JAH SHAKA to experience the vibrations in full effect. Great amps should have it all, I haven't heard that yet.

[Music at Home]

A bit off-topic, but, regarding Linn and Naim ... systems of all one make or the other can be too much Linn, or too much Naim.

Too much Linn - in order to make the tune easy to follow, something gets stripped out and the sound is simplified too far. Think of something like the computer animated feature films often used to demonstrate large screen TV's and projectors, they all look great with this kind of material but if this is all you watched, long term exposure would get rather boring.

Too much Naim - fast, exciting, driven. Maintains the grit, earthiness and balls of real music, but long term exposure is rather fatiguing and ("cerebrally" *) unsatisfying.

Me, currently using Chord 2Qute DAC, Naim Supernait 2, Linn Majik 109's

* - thanks Efraim roots

[matthias]

Actually I tried the Sagatun but it didn't really cut it as I preferred Klimax Kontrol. Tundra 2A on the other hand is very special IMHO, it's the kind of amp that vitalize the room, I promise your household plants will look stunning if you get a T2A :-) Sagatun Monos was also fantastic when I heard them at the launch event. For now I think I'll have to wait for a Lejonklou integrated, I predict that it will bring some debate which is better pre/power or integrated, and Lejonklou will get a lot of work improving the pre/power amps. To me Lejonklou amps leans towards a more transcendental 'dreamlike' musical experience, he should also go see JAH SHAKA to experience the vibrations in full effect. Great amps should have it all, I haven't heard that yet.

Efraim,
like you I owned both Linn and Naim.
I started with LK1/Dirak PS/LK280. This old school Linn sound was fantastic at that time, I liked it very much. The later Linn amps were a little boring and anaemic for my taste, I changed to Naim NAC52 and NAP250 but was never fully satisfied. Unfortunately I never listened to Fredriks amps but IMO for now the best of both worlds is Exposure(see my signature). I would like to compare the mighty Exposure MCX preamp to Sagatun Monos.

Matt

[Charlie1]

for now the best of both worlds is Exposure(see my signature).

I bought an Exposure 15 around 1990. I tried Linn amps but there was something synthetic about the sound that I really didn't like - can't recall the models. Maybe I would have chosen differently if I understood tunedem at that time. Pretty sure I tried Naim too. I do recall the sales person saying the same as you, i.e. somewhere between Linn and Naim.

[Efraim roots]

Ok I didn't know Exposure still existed actually, wasn't that a brand among the flatearth community back in the day also? They seemed to have a hard time keeping up with Linn and Naim back then, you seldom hear about them? Personally I have faith in Lejonklou, I think I need Sagatun Monos and Tundra 2A to be happy today but I can't afford and nor have the shelfs for it, so I just have to wait for that integrated or some great upgrade to Sagatun. It's very easy for me to relax and just enjoy music with a good nait so I probably go with one of those in the meantime. Since I pulled out my nait 1 from the closet the KK/T2 hasn't got much playtime. One thing tho, my test with Sagatun vs KK wasn't for any extended time, I had the Sagatun in the system about a day and a half, so I don't really know about music thru full Lejonklou amps over time.