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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-02 16:28
by springwood64
Late to the party and I find myself in a minority position: I really prefer the serviced Kans
No deep analysis - I just want the music from the serviced kans to continue and am unengaged by the unserviced kans.
I have experimented by dancing to the unserviced kans to see if I can reverse my instinctive preference, but I really don't get on with them.
If I try to analyse the differences I struggle to hear anything different, but my stomach is very convinced that the serviced are better.
I tested on my daughter but she unhelpfully said that the track was 'meh'
Note: I listened to the tracks in two tabs within a firefox browser on my PC, via headphones
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-02 16:59
by Spannko
Charlie1 wrote: ↑2022-12-02 16:19
Thanks Spannko.
So, were Linn using polypropylene Solens, not bipolar electrolytic Solens?
I wonder if some of the Kan crossover caps are more likely to drift than the offers.
I think the Kans started with all Alcap elecrolytics then towards the end of the eighties changed some of the caps to Bennic metalised polypropylene. I’d have to check to be sure though.
Here’s an interesting photo of the capacitors used in the Naim Ovator’s. I’ve never heard the Ovator’s, so I don’t know how musical they were, but Naim appear to have chosen eight different caps to suit their position in the crossover!
48F5E9A6-C554-462C-9A38-45FC94DA80D4.jpeg
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-02 17:07
by Charlie1
springwood64 wrote: ↑2022-12-02 16:28
Late to the party and I find myself in a minority position: I really prefer the serviced Kans
No deep analysis - I just want the music from the serviced kans to continue and am unengaged by the unserviced kans.
I have experimented by dancing to the unserviced kans to see if I can reverse my instinctive preference, but I really don't get on with them.
If I try to analyse the differences I struggle to hear anything different, but my stomach is very convinced that the serviced are better.
I tested on my daughter but she unhelpfully said that the track was 'meh'
Note: I listened to the tracks in two tabs within a firefox browser on my PC, via headphones
Thanks springwood!
That's a tough ask for your daughter to dance to U2!
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-02 17:16
by Charlie1
Spannko wrote: ↑2022-12-02 16:59
I think the Kans started with all Alcap elecrolytics then towards the end of the eighties changed some of the caps to Bennic metalised polypropylene. I’d have to check to be sure though.
Here’s an interesting photo of the capacitors used in the Naim Ovator’s. I’ve never heard the Ovator’s, so I don’t know how musical they were, but Naim appear to have chosen at least six different caps to suit their position in the crossover. 48F5E9A6-C554-462C-9A38-45FC94DA80D4.jpeg
Thanks Spannko.
You're right - Bennics were introduced in '88 - about a year before the Kan 2 was launched. My unserviced pair are from '86. Serviced pair from '85.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-03 02:47
by lejonklou
Spannko wrote: ↑2022-12-02 16:16
I must admit, I’ve blindly gone along the “polypropylene caps are better” route with my diy speakers. This isn’t a particularly clever move on my behalf tbh given that I’ve found that practically all the speaker building advice on the internet has proved to be extremely unhelpful! Charlie1’s rebuild has prompted me to look at the crossovers of some of the most musical speakers of the past and it’s interesting to note that most of them contain both Solen (or equivalent) polypropylene caps and Alcaps or just Alcaps. So the Alcaps can’t be that bad. I’ve compared the Solen to about half a dozen of the usual audiophile caps and the Solens seemed to be quite a bit more musical. So the Solens might not be that bad either! Again, looking at the classic crossovers of the past, I’ve got a feeling that a combination of the two is worth experimenting with.
Yes, speaker building advice on the Internet is terrible. The same is also true for audio amplifier advice. But if you look at it through an inverting lens, thinking “probably true on a superficial level, but likely something to avoid when in search for musicality”, it can be quite helpful.
I think combinations are definitely worth experimenting with. And don’t shy away from including the cheapest brands of plastic capacitors.
Something similar exists in the world of inductors. Air core is supposed to be great and only size and cost will prevent you from using anything else. But there are multiple parameters involved and the only path to the music is to listen without prejudice.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-03 17:48
by Charlie1
Thanks Fredrik!
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-03 20:34
by tokenbrit
Charlie1 wrote: ↑2022-12-01 23:03
Thanks all for your comments which help me a lot.
I love the sound and sometimes that brings it's own rewards, but still struggling a bit in terms of musical flow - they have defo improved over the 150 hours though. Maybe 300 will be the magic number :) I do feel a bit sorry for them cos I can only find a Wet Wet Wet CD at the moment but fortunately they are playing to themselves :D
How are they doing after a deluge of Wet Wet Wet: do we 'Shed a Tear' for the musical flow, or have you found that 'Love Is All Around' now?
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-04 01:58
by Charlie1
Ha ha,
I'm just 'Wishing I was Lucky' when it comes to the capacitor lottery
Which is incidentally the only song of theirs I quite like - the verses and bridge, not so much the chorus
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-04 03:06
by tokenbrit
Charlie1 wrote: ↑2022-12-04 01:58
Ha ha,
I'm just 'Wishing I was Lucky' when it comes to the capacitor lottery
Which is incidentally the only song of theirs I quite like - the verses and bridge, not so much the chorus
Maybe they'll be a Sweet Little Mystery... If the capacitors don't work out though, I hope you find better ones Somewhere Somehow
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-04 11:16
by Charlie1
Please can we stop now :)
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-04 12:00
by beck
Yes, this is all getting too wet for any electronics to funktion well………..
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-04 17:43
by tokenbrit
Charlie1 wrote: ↑2022-12-04 11:16
Please can we stop now :)
OK, I'll cap it there... ;)
Still curious to know how they work out over time since, like you, I thought the serviced sounded good, but the unserviced were more musical.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-04 18:54
by Whatsmynaim
I'm hearing potential in the serviced Kans! They did things with more nuance compared to the unserviced. It's just right now they seem to hold back.
You should let them play lots of music, perhaps check the torquing of the drivers if you haven't, and later post a new recording to compare.
Good luck!
BTW. For whatever my opinion is worth, as pop band goes Wet Wet Wet isn't too bad ;)
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-04 23:50
by Charlie1
tokenbrit wrote: ↑2022-12-04 17:43
Charlie1 wrote: ↑2022-12-04 11:16
Please can we stop now :)
OK, I'll cap it there... ;)
Still curious to know how they work out over time since, like you, I thought the serviced sounded good, but the unserviced were more musical.
;)
I'll do another clip mid-week after 300+ hours and then I think I need to live with them for a few weeks.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-04 23:52
by Charlie1
Whatsmynaim wrote: ↑2022-12-04 18:54
I'm hearing potential in the serviced Kans! They did things with more nuance compared to the unserviced. It's just right now they seem to hold back.
You should let them play lots of music, perhaps check the torquing of the drivers if you haven't, and later post a new recording to compare.
Good luck!
BTW. For whatever my opinion is worth, as pop band goes Wet Wet Wet isn't too bad ;)
I had the grills glued back in as I wasn't sure if that contributed in anyway to performance. Will post again later this week.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-05 00:25
by lejonklou
Have the drive units in the original Kan’s been torqued? And with which torque were the rebuilt ones fastened?
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-05 11:29
by Charlie1
He does them by feel. Wouldn't there be a likelihood of them working loose in a few years if we used lower torques that typically sound best? And I wouldn't be able to check and re-tighten them.
He said he's particularly careful with the tweeters due to the plastic surround, but they are also glued.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-05 11:38
by lejonklou
Ok, and the originals? Re-torqued or never touched?
Yes, fasteners in wood will loosen. Either you do them overtight or you retorque them several times to the optimal value.
I am asking because I wondered whether those torques might be part of what I didn’t enjoy on the rebuilt pair. In case they’re very tight and the originals are on the loose side.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-05 11:57
by Charlie1
I've never touched the originals and the grills have never been off to my knowledge.
Linn never torqued them either - not saying they didn't need to, just saying what was done back then.
Went up into the office this morning and something had changed - they were musically flowing much better. Just tried them back in the house and I can enjoy the music for sure. Probably still not as musical as the unserviced ones but still enjoyable and they fix some of the 'sound' issues I had. Need more listening to be sure I'm happy with them though.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-06 12:52
by Charlie1
Here's the same U2 track using one clip, changeover at 2m 30s.
I started doing separate tracks using a lesser-known song but that all went to cock.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xoj7drx661cra ... 3.mp4?dl=0
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-07 14:32
by Charlie1
lejonklou wrote: ↑2022-12-02 14:03
Those bipolar electrolytics will sound completely different, that’s for sure. And the optimal value for each electrolytic cap will likely differ from the optimal values when using metallized polypropylene caps. In other words: Some fine tuning is often necessary.
Do you think the Bennic caps in late Kan 1s would have been bipolar electrolytics as well or could they have been metallized polypropylene? My train of thought is that if they were polypropylene then the new Solens might be a better match for very late pairs.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-07 18:56
by ThomasOK
The serviced ones seem to be coming along compared to what I remember of the original tracks. I still prefer the unserviced pair but the difference musically isn't as big as I originally found it to be and the serviced pair do some nice things.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-07 19:41
by Charlie1
Tx Tom
I'm gonna try to just live with them for a while. However, they remind me of the Troika rebuild. Took ages to run in (or get used to), did similar nice things, but was eventually shown up by a stock Linn product (Adikt in same spec deck) which just made so much more sense of the music.
I get the point Fredrik was making about Katan caps and I fear this experiment will be equally futile.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-08 09:14
by Spannko
ThomasOK wrote: ↑2022-12-07 18:56
The serviced ones seem to be coming along compared to what I remember of the original tracks. I still prefer the unserviced pair but the difference musically isn't as big as I originally found it to be and the serviced pair do some nice things.
Agreed. Hopefully they’ll improve more as time goes by 🤞
Re: Playground for practical listening exercises
Posted: 2022-12-08 11:25
by Whatsmynaim
They can, and probably will improve over time while the unserviced pair can only get worse. I know which ones I would pick ;)
I have to ask. Is the glue used to secure the elements stiff or a bit elastic? If it's the latter you could experiment with the torquing, which I still suspect is the biggest reason for the difference in musicality.