Playground for practical listening exercises

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

Hmmm ... Clip 5 ... my vote goes for Nait 1 ... background: Female vocal is more in tune ...
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-01-19 16:11 Finally completed my vintage Naim search for a more powerful Nait, thanks to much appreciated input on this thread plus additional feedback from some forum friends via PM. Thanks to everyone!

I've settled on 12/110. The CB-era pre-amps were a problem. They just don’t seem to cut it for me - too laboured and unflowing. Never got to hear the bolt-down 22 or 32 though. Interestingly, it was never an issue with the cards - using CB32 or 32.5 cards in the 12 sounds almost as good, better in some ways (i.e. cleaner).

I also couldn’t get on with the Naim separate PSU architecture for some reason - where everything is earthed via the SNAPS or HiCap. Therefore, the very nice sounding 250 didn’t make it through :(

The 110 has had a service and so has the Nait but I prefer the unserviced cards in the 12.

So here are the final clips of 12/110 vs Nait, starting off with some cool music and quickly descending in coolness, but they put a smile on my face nonetheless.

12/110:
Clip 1 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/6e8ihj390lfe5 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 2 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfonl3m99hthk ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 3 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/dqwlea1b87v5x ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 4 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/r46my3outzo36 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 5 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/942ktee6gzsqy ... D.MOV?dl=0

Nait:
Clip 1 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/v520j13edn6f1 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 2 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/0d441qg4n09zv ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 3 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/qfauql22fri2g ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 4 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5t45jkxuakc2 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 5 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/wq9z9rclhcs49 ... D.MOV?dl=0

Everything was properly warmed up and set-up for each amp.

I know these aren't the most musical Kan 1s but they don't distract me by often sounding 'weird' at a certain frequency.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-01-19 21:03 Hmmm ... Clip 5 ... my vote goes for Nait 1 ... background: Female vocal is more in tune ...
I agree and think the Nait is still a bit more tuneful, coherent and rhythmic but it's close and I can certainly live with the shortfall.

What you can't hear is the 'thin' sound and lack of bass driving Kans at moderate volume. The 110 brings a more balanced sound at normal listening levels. The 250 adds slam, deeper bass, and does bass at low volume as well - it's a shame it can't power a pre-amp.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2020-01-20 00:13, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote: 2020-01-19 17:03 I would keep both and simply enjoy their slightly different qualities.
I'll always have onto the Nait :)

It works better with Keilidhs which are easier to drive.

I think I know what you mean about the 12/110 being more head on the music. It's slightly too eager to get on with the music but just a hint, to my ears anyway.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by AlbannachFE »

Great stuff, charlie1 - very musical (I'll have to have a more 'in depth' listen to see which is my favourite). BTW, how fantastic is the bass line in "You're the One That I Want" ?! Always loved it! :-)

Shame you didn't get on with the outboard PSUs, as the 250 is a very special amp, IMO.
JV was certainly a fan, if ThomasOK's account of their first meeting, recounted on this very forum, is anything to go by! ;-)

'Julian: It's not a question of "Can you hear this or that better with a 250 vs. a 160?". As far as I'm concerned the NAP250 is the only decent amp in the world. Period!' :-)

BTW, I've lost track, but did you try a 120, which would, arguably, be the 'natural partner' of the 12?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

Yes Charlie,
I know what you mean (I still have Nait 2, olive) ...
And you are absolutely right, if you can live with the shortfall, than only stays Happiness, Musical Enjoyment ...
All the best ...
P.S. I agree with you ... It' different in room and over the net sound ...
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-01-19 23:57
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-01-19 21:03 Hmmm ... Clip 5 ... my vote goes for Nait 1 ... background: Female vocal is more in tune ...
I agree and think the Nait is still a bit more tuneful, coherent and rhythmic but it's close and I can certainly live with the shortfall.

What you can't hear is the 'thin' sound and lack of bass driving Kans at moderate volume. The 110 brings a more balanced sound at normal listening levels. The 250 adds slam, deeper bass, and does bass at low volume as well - it's a shame it can't power a pre-amp.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

AlbannachFE wrote: 2020-01-20 00:40 Shame you didn't get on with the outboard PSUs, as the 250 is a very special amp, IMO.
JV was certainly a fan, if ThomasOK's account of their first meeting, recounted on this very forum, is anything to go by! ;-)

'Julian: It's not a question of "Can you hear this or that better with a 250 vs. a 160?". As far as I'm concerned the NAP250 is the only decent amp in the world. Period!' :-)

BTW, I've lost track, but did you try a 120, which would, arguably, be the 'natural partner' of the 12?
I was surprised how much better sounding the 250 is to the 110 or 160. A lot more information coming through and all refined and enjoyable. It sounded 'just right' with LP12 and Kans.

I skipped the opportunity to pick-up a lovely condition 120 cos I'd not long bought the 250 and was a bit tight for cash. If one pops up again over the next few years then I'd give it a whirl for sure. They are rare though.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by OscarH »

The Nait has a certain way with the main riff in clip 3; great twang on the lead guitar before the bass comes in.

Makes me want to set up a small vintage system somewhere.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

OscarH wrote: 2020-01-20 13:28 Makes me want to set up a small vintage system somewhere.
It's good fun!

Tukans and Keilidhs are cheap, easy to find, easy to drive and not too revealing.

K20 is cheap too and pretty much the same cable used to develop the Nait.

You just need to be patient to build it up.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

You mean Linn K20 is = to Naim 4 cable ...
If yes ... is it the same 3.5 m/L at least, as is for Naim 5 cable ?
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-01-20 13:55
OscarH wrote: 2020-01-20 13:28 Makes me want to set up a small vintage system somewhere.
It's good fun!

Tukans and Keilidhs are cheap, easy to find, easy to drive and not too revealing.

K20 is cheap too and pretty much the same cable used to develop the Nait.

You just need to be patient to build it up.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-01-20 14:22 You mean Linn K20 is = to Naim 4 cable ...
If yes ... is it the same 3.5 m/L at least, as is for Naim 5 cable ?
Yes, same cable as NACA4, but softer plastic so more flexible.

Yeah, supposed to be 3.5m minimum as well AFAIR, although I'm not sure it would apply to the Nait design.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

Thank you for your prompt and in detail answer Charlie1.
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-01-20 14:44
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-01-20 14:22 You mean Linn K20 is = to Naim 4 cable ...
If yes ... is it the same 3.5 m/L at least, as is for Naim 5 cable ?
Yes, same cable as NACA4, but softer plastic so more flexible.

Yeah, supposed to be 3.5m minimum as well AFAIR, although I'm not sure it would apply to the Nait design.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-01-19 16:11

12/110:
Clip 1 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/6e8ihj390lfe5 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 2 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfonl3m99hthk ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 3 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/dqwlea1b87v5x ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 4 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/942ktee6gzsqy ... D.MOV?dl=0

Nait:
Clip 1 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/v520j13edn6f1 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 2 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/0d441qg4n09zv ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 3 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/qfauql22fri2g ... D.MOV?dl=0
Clip 4 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/wq9z9rclhcs49 ... D.MOV?dl=0

Everything was properly warmed up and set-up for each amp.

I know these aren't the most musical Kan 1s but they don't distract me by often sounding 'weird' at a certain frequency.
I like the Nait in all Clips better ... even more so in clip 1 and 2
Thank you for finally having a chance to hear a Nait which I never had a chance to listen before.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Defender wrote: 2020-01-20 18:01 I like the Nait in all Clips better ... even more so in clip 1 and 2
Thank you for finally having a chance to hear a Nait which I never had a chance to listen before.
You're welcome. I think the Nait is the funk master! I know there is more to music than just this, but It seems to preserve funky rhythms better than anything else I've heard, hence Marvin and the band always sounds so good. The Nait's tiny 13 watts just seems to do around corners much better than the big boys.

I must confess that I've not compared it to Sagatun+Tundra or Boazu which I've no doubt are more tuneful as well.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

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OscarH wrote: 2020-01-20 13:28
The Nait has a certain way with the main riff in clip 3; great twang on the lead guitar before the bass comes in.

Makes me want to set up a small vintage system somewhere.
I prefer the Nait on all the clips, but this one especially. Wow. I think Billy Ocean makes the strongest pro-flat earth argument I've ever heard!

Time to re-motivate myself to get the Nait serviced.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

Gents, what are the posibilities for service / re-cap or what is the name for complete service of Nait ...
markiteight wrote: 2020-01-20 21:18
OscarH wrote: 2020-01-20 13:28
The Nait has a certain way with the main riff in clip 3; great twang on the lead guitar before the bass comes in.

Makes me want to set up a small vintage system somewhere.
I prefer the Nait on all the clips, but this one especially. Wow. I think Billy Ocean makes the strongest pro-flat earth argument I've ever heard!

Time to re-motivate myself to get the Nait serviced.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

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V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-01-20 21:27 Gents, what are the posibilities for service / re-cap or what is the name for complete service of Nait ...
Check with Naim but as far as I know you just get it serviced - there are no options that I'm aware of.

In order to keep the resale value at maximum, I only use Naim or an authorised service agent.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

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markiteight wrote: 2020-01-20 21:18 I prefer the Nait on all the clips, but this one especially. Wow. I think Billy Ocean makes the strongest pro-flat earth argument I've ever heard!

Time to re-motivate myself to get the Nait serviced.
I do wonder to what extent the Kans are a part of what you're enjoying though. They have amazing timing and stop/start on a sixpence - a mixed metaphor but you know what I mean :)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

Thank you Chalie1,
Nait is in same condition, as new from Naim ... I'm first and only owner. Now it is 30+ years ... definitely it need to be serviced and the best will be to try to organize service at Naim ... not because of resale, I don't plan that, but because of things to be properly done ... spare parts and so on ... maybe something else +, but that is other issue ...
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-01-20 21:33
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-01-20 21:27 Gents, what are the posibilities for service / re-cap or what is the name for complete service of Nait ...
Check with Naim but as far as I know you just get it serviced - there are no options that I'm aware of.

In order to keep the resale value at maximum, I only use Naim or an authorised service agent.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

Defender wrote: 2020-01-18 17:51 good to have you guys and thank you for your help

all is in right order smooth side in is Clip 2
the strange thing is when I sit in front of the system I am 95% sure its the other way around.
If I hear the clips through my phone I also prefer the second clip. This is really confusing.

here is the test for right direction
Clip 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/riuvxs9718c9v ... 4.mov?dl=0

Clip 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z2o2uk8d3sfa4 ... 6.mov?dl=0

and yes I really enjoy the turntable
Yep, I'm liking Clip 2 here. There is an unusual thump to the bass on Clip 1 and the voice and guitar aren't as natural. Pace is not as good either on 1.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by markiteight »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-01-20 21:50 I do wonder to what extent the Kans are a part of what you're enjoying though. They have amazing timing and stop/start on a sixpence - a mixed metaphor but you know what I mean :)
No doubt the Kans play a key role, but all these clips seem to bee-bop along more than previous clips you've submitted. They really sound good. What source are you using?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

markiteight wrote: 2020-01-22 02:52 No doubt the Kans play a key role, but all these clips seem to bee-bop along more than previous clips you've submitted. They really sound good. What source are you using?
LP12 hasn't changed in about a year, so still Radikal/Urika/Krystal/Ekos SE. I sold the Keel so using steel subchassis. I'm using original feet and a pre-cirkus bearing which I prefer with vintage Linn/Naim.

I reckon it's more likely the speakers. Since commiting to this pair of Kans I was able to fine tune the setup and get them closer to rear wall (they don't have the early sticky out terminals).

Also, paid more attention to cabling after beck's feedback so no ICs touching power cables etc. And everything was warmed up a lot more than usual - i.e. left on over night. Can't think of anything else though.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

Hi Charlie1, you mention "reckon" ... do you have such experience ... ?
I need to do it or such kind of service to 2 pairs of drivers.
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-01-22 09:53
markiteight wrote: 2020-01-22 02:52 No doubt the Kans play a key role, but all these clips seem to bee-bop along more than previous clips you've submitted. They really sound good. What source are you using?
LP12 hasn't changed in about a year, so still Radikal/Urika/Krystal/Ekos SE. I sold the Keel so using steel subchassis. I'm using original feet and a pre-cirkus bearing which I prefer with vintage Linn/Naim.

I reckon it's more likely the speakers. Since commiting to this pair of Kans I was able to fine tune the setup and get them closer to rear wall (they don't have the early sticky out terminals).

Also, paid more attention to cabling after beck's feedback so no ICs touching power cables etc. And everything was warmed up a lot more than usual - i.e. left on over night. Can't think of anything else though.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

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V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-01-22 10:09 Hi Charlie1, you mention "reckon" ... do you have such experience ... ?
I need to do it or such kind of service to 2 pairs of drivers.
Sorry V.A.MKD, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me...

The Kans were purchased second hand and I don't believe they have been modified or serviced in any way. I have no experience with servicing Kans.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

New drivers or cons on Kans, my mistake, I don't understand what you say, my English is not ... now I understand :)))
Thank you anyway.
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-01-22 10:46
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-01-22 10:09 Hi Charlie1, you mention "reckon" ... do you have such experience ... ?
I need to do it or such kind of service to 2 pairs of drivers.
Sorry V.A.MKD, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me...

The Kans were purchased second hand and I don't believe they have been modified or serviced in any way. I have no experience with servicing Kans.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

I'm with defender and markiteight, I prefer the Nait on all four clips - it moves better and I hear more inflection on guitar and vocals.
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