Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

El Mero Mero wrote: 2020-02-24 09:11 I prefer the stands in both clips. Charlie did you get the distance to the back wall right? The Kans sound a bit "punchy" to me on the wall brackets.
Same distance on both, hence the wood block to bring the stands out.

I get what you're all saying. I am just not all that confident that the height is going to not just bring the brackets on par but make them better than the stands.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by El Mero Mero »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-02-22 00:53 OK, let's try something else - with a little rock for El Mero Mero, and for me as I listen to it quite a bit too.

Clip 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zm3ayokmgx0qo ... m.mov?dl=0

Clip 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6lgtic0awijzw ... m.mov?dl=0

If anybody can guess what changed they get a free record (postage and handling charges not included). :-)
Thank you Thomas!
Its a lot of fun listen to those tracks. The fact that the speakers looks like "retro/futuristic art" is just a bonus!
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Re: Everything louder than everything else?

Post by Spannko »

OscarH wrote: 2020-02-23 22:10 Volume while recording clips or doing setup comparisons at home - how do you choose?

While most components of the Hi-Fi hopefully behave largely the same over a range of volumes, I guess most find that speakers don’t entirely and rooms most certainly don’t.

Can an A-B comparison give different results depending on which volume is used for the comparison?
It’s a difficult one OscarH. If I record at my normal listening level, I get requests to turn the volume up - into areas where the system works less linearly. I justify this to myself by thinking that as long as both clips are recorded at the same level, the differences between the clips should still be representative of the differences between the [s]clips[/s] components.
Last edited by Spannko on 2020-02-25 11:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

maffe wrote: 2019-11-03 15:53
lejonklou wrote: 2019-11-03 12:33 Some friendly tips when making comparative clips:

• Film or record from the exact same position each time.
• Try keeping the volume identical each time.
• It's much easier comparing two clips than three or more. More than two decreases certainty, simplicity and participation.
• If using a phone, quit apps and set it to flight mode before recording.
• If using a phone, point the camera towards the loudspeakers and keep the area around the phone's microphone free (keep away from limiting surfaces such as a table or a wall). Don't point the microphone towards the speakers, it sounds worse.
Would like to ad two more to the list:

- Remove any form of case from your phone
- Keep your hand away from the microphone, it might work as a funnel
Finally I find it ...
I would like to add here ... Hardware ... ???
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

Is it possible to "pin" post (about tip for clips) here ... ???
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Re: Everything louder than everything else?

Post by OscarH »

Spannko wrote: 2020-02-24 10:48
OscarH wrote: 2020-02-23 22:10 Volume while recording clips or doing setup comparisons at home - how do you choose?

While most components of the Hi-Fi hopefully behave largely the same over a range of volumes, I guess most find that speakers don’t entirely and rooms most certainly don’t.

Can an A-B comparison give different results depending on which volume is used for the comparison?
It’s a difficult one OscarH. If I record at my normal listening level, I get requests to turn the volume up - into areas where the system works less linearly. I justify this to myself by thinking that as long as both clips are recorded at the same level, the differences between the clips should still be representative of the differences between the clips.
My amplifier has a volume display from 0 to 99 (though cleverly programmable to stop at a user defined maximum, in my case 80, to keep the kids from blowing things up) so keeping track of reference volume is easy.

All my clips have been done at 55. Normal listening level ranges from say 40 to 60 depending on time of day, mood and recording.

Still, I assume I'm not the only one who finds that each record and each situation has a sweet spot volume which is the most enjoyable. While I largely agree that differences should be equally identifiable, I can't escape the suspicion that the 'sweet spot' highlights the aspects of the music that we consider important. Evaluating away from this may subconsciously skew the picture?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

I think it’s ok to record at any level you want. If people think it’s too quiet, they can always turn the volume up!

Don’t forget that you can only please some of the people, some of the time, and never all of the people, all of the time! Just do what feels right for you.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

Spannko wrote: 2020-02-25 12:00 I think it’s ok to record at any level you want. If people think it’s too quiet, they can always turn the volume up!

Don’t forget that you can only please some of the people, some of the time, and never all of the people, all of the time! Just do what feels right for you.
Yes Spannko,
I think that point here is to record same volume between Clip A and B. Difference between A and B add more than one factor in "game" ...
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

I think you’re right vlado. It makes comparisons easier if the volume levels are equal.

However! Whilst I fully accept that people will generally prefer the louder of two clips (fully supported by research), I’m not sure how loudness affects the tune we hear through the clips, cos I’ve not seen any research on perceived pitch wrt loudness. My own empirical evidence is that loudness does not change our perception of a components tune playing ability (within limits).

But! I absolutely agree that we should keep the playback levels the same wherever possible.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

I am an a clip man.

Lovely music and system.

Especially on the last track I notice the beat being more together.

The b clips gives me a more spread out feel.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

I prefer the “a” clips too. Looking forward to hearing what you’ve done!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote: 2020-02-25 18:17 I prefer the “a” clips too. Looking forward to hearing what you’ve done!
Well, for one he has gone from Akito1 arm to EkosSE! :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

A for me please too.

Sounding very nice.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

Yep, I'm liking the As too. The timing seems off and somewhat compressed in the B clips.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

A here as well. Sounds gooood!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

OscarH wrote: 2020-02-23 08:59
markiteight wrote: 2020-02-22 05:10 This is a phenomenon I've encountered more and more as I dial in my own system. I find myself enjoying music I would have otherwise rejected because apparently it didn't make sense to me. This is precisely what I was missing, and seeking, when I discovered and adopted the Tune Method.
This is spot on! I find exactly the same thing - I simply appreciate more music the more musical the Hi-Fi system becomes. (As opposed to the conventional audiophile cop out that ‘this system really shows the flaws in bad recordings’)

No clue what ThomasOK has changed between the first two clips (Vlado may well be onto something with the plant haha) - suspect you’re just showing off. That’s one magnificent sounding system!

Like others, I also found myself listening to the entire Pat Benatar clip...
OK, time to spill the beans as nobody guessed right (so no free record), though it certainly has split opinions. First off, thanks for all the positive comments, and I suppose I was showing off a bit with the Pat Benatar clip. The reason for this is that I pulled it out a couple of months ago and couldn't get involved in it, which surprised me as I had liked it a lot quite a few years ago on my Isobariks. I tried it again and some improvements to the system, likely removal of the subwoofer being the biggest one, brought it back to life as a few have noticed. It gives me a new direction: maybe I should pull out every old, overplayed piece of music I can find to see if any can defeat my system's ability to bring music to life? Hotel California, anybody?

Vlado's guess was the most amusing but I'm glad he's not right. That plant does best when watered once every two weeks. If it sounded better when freshly watered I'd end up killing it in no time watering it before every play! ;-)

I like markiteight's guess too but that would be too simple.

There is a third Harmoni rack that is behind the left Quad with all Tor shelves. It currently houses a CD12 on top, HAKAI and DAC in the middle and Kremlin on the bottom. The CD12 was plugged into the same outlet strip as the rest of the system (two Singularity, two SM, two TM and the KRadikal plus the CD12 into the 8 outlets). The HAKAI was plugged directly into the second outlet in the wall that is wired for 230 Volts and the Kremlin was not plugged in. The CD12 and HAKAI were powered on but not connected to the system as that would bridge the L and R grounds and hurt the musicality.

Clip 1 was the system as just described, Clip 2 was the same exact active part of the system but with the power cable removed from the CD12! Yes, it does make that much difference. No, I didn't expect it (it was Simon's idea) nor can I really explain it.

In room there is no question that unplugging the CD12 improves things with more impact to the drums and bass, more tonality to the bess and more natural blend of the two voices when Eric joins in. I think this may be a trap but only in the sense that the increased clarity makes you think it is more Hi-Fi and less music. In room there is no question that this is not true.

I also tried unplugging the HAKAI and noticed an improvement of similar quality but much less pronounced than unplugging the CD12. I will have to experiment with plugging those units into a 120 Volt outlet to see whether I can keep them warmed up or not.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by maffe »

beck wrote: 2020-02-25 18:51
Spannko wrote: 2020-02-25 18:17 I prefer the “a” clips too. Looking forward to hearing what you’ve done!
Well, for one he has gone from Akito1 arm to EkosSE! :-)
Well spotted!

More clips tomorrow ;)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

I try to understand why is different ...
Lejonklou, Linn and Hokai all have SMPS, so adding digital noise in AC is not issue ...
So Huston we have problem ...
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-02-25 20:23 OK, time to spill the beans as nobody guessed right (so no free record)
Huh!

So I was totally out cycling then, as we say in Swedish (meaning that someone doesn't know what they're talking about). The funny thing is that I still have a slight preference for the clip when your CD12 was plugged into the mains. I don't understand why, but as you have confirmed in room the benefits of completely unplugging it, I won't spend any time trying to figure it out.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-02-25 21:32 I try to understand why is different ...
Lejonklou, Linn and Hokai all have SMPS, so adding digital noise in AC is not issue ...
So Huston we have problem ...
No power supply is completely immune to mains quality, even if they chop it up and rebake it, like Switch Mode Power Supplies do.

However, I think the most likely reason is not the effect the CD12 (in this case) has on mains live and neutral, but rather that it contaminates the mains ground.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-02-25 21:39
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-02-25 21:32 I try to understand why is different ...
Lejonklou, Linn and Hokai all have SMPS, so adding digital noise in AC is not issue ...
So Huston we have problem ...
No power supply is completely immune to mains quality, even if they chop it up and rebake it, like Switch Mode Power Supplies do.

However, I think the most likely reason is not the effect the CD12 (in this case) has on mains live and neutral, but rather that it contaminates the mains ground.
Yes, Thank you Mr. Lejonklou, best will be to unplug all equipment from power strip that are not in "audio system" ... video, lamps or ...
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by OscarH »

maffe wrote: 2020-02-25 21:13
beck wrote: 2020-02-25 18:51
Spannko wrote: 2020-02-25 18:17 I prefer the “a” clips too. Looking forward to hearing what you’ve done!
Well, for one he has gone from Akito1 arm to EkosSE! :-)
Well spotted!

More clips tomorrow ;)
A for me too. Tighter and more coherent.

Is your system described somewhere?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

I’ve been doing some more listening, and that’s a great system you have there maffe!

I’m looking forward to hearing more clips and finding out what you’re using.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

Spannko wrote: 2020-02-26 11:22
I’ve been doing some more listening, and that’s a great system you have there maffe!

I’m looking forward to hearing more clips and finding out what you’re using.
Yes, it will be good to post it in Me and My System ...
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