Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

Yeah, I prefer the rhythm in A and as that's really important to my enjoyment it gets my vote as well.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by tpetsch »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-07-13 16:53 It has been a while since I've put some clips up here but here are a couple that let you hear a change in the system. They also serve to let you hear my system all back together after the repairs and with the optimized power strip I talked about in the thread on Cheap power strips. Have fun!

Clip A
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q9cs3e8rg2j2s ... M.mov?dl=0

Clip B
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qmc1pqrllcxqa ... M.mov?dl=0
"A" for me too, "B" sounds to me like a hotter setup -via cable "upgrade"?- in an attempt to glean more definition from the system at the sacrifice of the Tune.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Spannko »

I’m not sure if I prefer A or B. The chord structures on A feel a bit uncomfortable, but as others have said, A appears to have more rhythmic drive.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by markiteight »

A
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by lejonklou »

A here as well
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by ThomasOK »

Thought it was past time for the reveal. The difference is visible but you have to look very closely. It is that A is using a Harmonihyllan Mimer K shelf under the SINGularities and B is the new Harmonihyllan Trud. Both shelves use a thin wood bottom section but the upper section on the Mimer K is machined aluminum and the Trud is machined birch. Also on the Mimer K the wood shelf is spaced from the inside bottom of the top metal part by 4 sets of double washers whereas the Trud has the lower piece glued to the top pice around the edges. The Trud is Anders replacement for the Mimer K. They certainly sound a bit different and I find both good.

In room and without the benefit of an instant A/B I was leaning to the Trud and a friend of mine asked how much it would be to order 4 of them after hearing the change. I still want to play around with them more and see what happens once the Trud settles in a bit. I hadn't seen clips of this change up here and thought it would be interesting to share them.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

Maybe not the best sounding product name in English
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by tokenbrit »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-07-20 21:03 Maybe not the best sounding product name in English
Seems appropriate: the rhythm did Trudge a bit in B... ;)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

True :)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by ThomasOK »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-07-20 21:03 Maybe not the best sounding product name in English
Especially not if you are dyslexic!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by markiteight »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-07-21 16:50 Especially not if you are dyslexic!
I initially read that as, "Especially if you are not dyslexic!"
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-07-21 16:50
Charlie1 wrote: 2022-07-20 21:03 Maybe not the best sounding product name in English
Especially not if you are dyslexic!
Does it come in a polished finish? :)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by PaulC »

Hi Thomas,

I changed my Mimer K for Trud and it was a no brainer for me. Trud was more musical. Listening to your recordings however certainly gives the impression that "A" is better. Anyway, I have now changed all shelves for Trud in my Harmonihylla and I reuse my Mimer K top plate in the' new "Schabrak II" base. This Harmonihylla (3*Trud/Shabrak II) is a very musical HH in my view. Something that I have found valuable is using the Tune method to 'tune' the HH. Tightening the uprights in small increments whilst doing AAA/B comparisons allows one to get the HH fully 'in tune'.

On another note, one thing I've noticed when doing AAA/B comparisons via streaming (which makes it easy to use music I have never heard before) is that if I pause for 15-20 seconds between the second and third "A", there is a noticeable improvement in experienced musicality for the third "A". I don't know if this effect is something that has already been discussed on this forum.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by ThomasOK »

I have heard from others that they prefer Trud as well, and my impression in the room is that they were more musical in two different places I tried them. I hadn't thought about tune method setting of the tightness of the caps, shame on me! There is also another small difference but it could be a factor. The distance between the SINGularity units is different on the two clips. Fredrik mentioned to me in the past that they should be pretty close together for best perfromance on the Mimer K. But changing the spacing hasn't been tried on the Trud. I unintentionally had them a little closer together on the Trud but without some experimentation I don't know the optimal distance on that shelf, which could be different from on the Mimer K. I did buy a couple of the Trud shelves and I still have two Mimer K shelves so I plan to do some more experimentation over time and I will put up at least one more set of clips.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by PaulC »

Thomas, considering your expertise I have no doubt you will get the best out of your new shelves. One thought though is that "Schabrak II" requires a new (thicker) base. On the clips it looks like you have the previous base Sleipner. My experience is that "Schabrak II" makes the biggest musical improvement.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by ThomasOK »

The base I have on the racks is the original Reference bottom, basically a Tor upside down, with a precisely trimmed damping pad on top of it. Anders did send me one of the new thicker bottoms to try as well and it is interesting to hear you feel it is such a big improvement. However he didn't send me instructions so I have requested them. It appears that I will have to thread the columns in from above, not below as on the Reference bottom. If so I would need to completely disassemble a rack to put on the new bottom, not a task to be undertaken lightly. Because of this I decided to try out the Trud shelves first.

I was wondering if you tried the new, thicker bottom with both the Mimer K and a thin wood board as an absorber? The thin wood one works so well on the current racks it makes me wonder about using the Mimer K instead. Thanks again for your informative posts.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by PaulC »

Hi Thomas, I haven't made that comparison. I did have a Sleipner bottom shelf before however and I experienced a significant improvement in musicality when changing to the Schabrak II. It may be worth noting that Anders has a Schabrak II as the bottom shelf of his new BORD shelving unit which I believe he views as his 'best' Harmonihylla.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

Wakonda vs Slimline PS Kairn vs Original toroidal PS Karin...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fcrxqv0fr8hl1 ... 4.mp4?dl=0

The Wakonda volume range is very different and unfortunately I didn't match them all that well. Kairns were identical.

Wakonda has been on for several days so has the advantage there. The Kairns came early this morning so been powered on for 3-4 hours. The toroidal PS Kairn was very warm by then.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by tokenbrit »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-07-28 12:42 Wakonda vs Slimline PS Kairn vs Original toroidal PS Karin...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fcrxqv0fr8hl1 ... 4.mp4?dl=0
I don't know if they're in that order but 1 sounded a bit 'all or nothing', lacked some musical finesse; 2 had more range but didn't bring the song to life; 3 was just better: forget listening, just enjoy. (no, I'm not auditioning for the part of Goldilocks :)
Last edited by tokenbrit on 2022-07-28 13:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

Yes, in that order.

I hear the same thing as you although I did think the slimline was more tuneful (no 2.) and thought perhaps the original (no 3) was a bit tired/laggy but defo the more natural to me too.

Here's just the two Kairns again (same order) playing Charlie's Classic Rock FM...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5vgx64xb8kxuk ... 7.mp4?dl=0

I think the cymbals at the beginning have more sense of rhythm with the Toroidal (no 2).
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2022-07-28 13:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by tokenbrit »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-07-28 13:30 Yes, in that order.

I hear the same thing as you although I did think the slimline was more tuneful (no 2.) and thought perhaps the original (no 3) was a bit tired/laggy but defo the more natural to me too.
I heard it the opposite with the Kairns: 2 a bit rushed; 3 more relaxed supporting rather than forcing the music. Depending on what was serviced in each, maybe the slimline needs a bit more run time to settle in... Curious: can you swap phono boards between Kairns, in case one is better than the other?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Charlie1 »

tokenbrit wrote: 2022-07-28 13:54 Curious: can you swap phono boards between Kairns, in case one is better than the other?
I think they are part of the motherboard but could be wrong.

Just a couple of caps replaced on the slimline PS but there's no hurry so think I'll revisit in a few weeks.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by tokenbrit »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-07-28 13:56 Just a couple of caps replaced on the slimline PS but there's no hurry so think I'll revisit in a few weeks.
Have fun :)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Spannko »

For me, both of the Kairns appeared to struggle with keeping the bass in time with the music (the slimline, particularly so). The Wakanda seemed to be better in this respect. Also, although it wasn’t easy to determine exactly, the Wakonda seemed a bit more tuneful to me - it seemed to hit the pitch of the notes more often. So the Wakonda sounds to me to be less refined but better with rhythms and tunes? At home, I’d listen to lots of different tracks before coming to a conclusion. I’ve led myself down the wrong garden path many a time after making a quick decision!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercises

Post by Tendaberry »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-07-28 12:42 Wakonda vs Slimline PS Kairn vs Original toroidal PS Karin...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fcrxqv0fr8hl1 ... 4.mp4?dl=0

The Wakonda volume range is very different and unfortunately I didn't match them all that well. Kairns were identical.

Wakonda has been on for several days so has the advantage there. The Kairns came early this morning so been powered on for 3-4 hours. The toroidal PS Kairn was very warm by then.
I liked the voice and the bass player more with the Slimline PS.
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