Playground for practical listening exercises

[John]

It's very telling to me in an A/B like this when an LP12 an may be involved when you don't hear from some of the members here. And just how emotionally invested people are in defending gear they own until the end.

I just listened several times again, and I can't get past it, YYY just has that LP12 artificial fatness coloration/blueprint over the whole performance and therefor over every performance. ..And the Blue belt as I expected did that Hi-Fi thing to the performance and got the LP12 to sound kinda less big/fat and artificial -which BTW pretty much everyone over at PF prefer this new Blue belt, and this too is really telling- but the overall tune suffered.

The Techniques was like a breath of fresh when compared to the other two, seemed to play the music with out that added Linn inherent coloration I've come to loose interest in over the past few years. And I have to admit, it's not a bad sounding deck.

And I'm curious, what is the OP's opinion -John- of the three differences as he experienced them while listening in his actual listening room?

I have not spend any time doing “live” direct comparisons between the various setups. I had the Technics apart last week to repair a frozen arm height adjustment ring that’s not uncommon for a deck its age, 1988. I also had then installed a new AT VM-95 on it and have maybe 3 hours on it.

The blue belt arrived the day of the recording and I have yet to test it or new Linn belt for direction. I’m gonna hold off until I can do line recordings directly to my MacBook. I’m waiting for a A/D converter to arrive before I proceed forward. I hate doing live comparisons when I can just record once and leisurely listen later. Especially when using Audacity software which allows you to have both files open and set starting points at any part of the track.

Comparing the blue vs Linn belt live is not practical because the blue belt runs at 32 rpm and rubs against the bottom of the belt guide when the Linn belt is running at 33.33. I made the recordings for this test when the speeds were adjusted correctly for each.

My plan is to make line recordings to sort out the belt orientation for each and then use those to sort out which belt I prefer. I may hold off on that until I have some time on the blue belt for “break-in” reasons.

From my listening to the recordings through Grado headphones into my iPad I thought YYY was best followed by XXX and ZZZ.

Thanks again for those who listened and commented.

[tpetsch]

OK John, thanks for posting some of the finer setup details and your thoughts/opinions about the sound of the three decks, but -and please don't take this the wrong way- can we assume that this A/B/C was not blind for you as it was for us? ...Enjoying your time and effort here, looking forward to your future A/B's.

[John]

OK John, thanks for posting what you thought and some of the finer details, enjoying your time and effort here, looking forward to your future A/B's.

I just listened to the song “Taxi” by Harry Chapin live on the LP12 Blue belt vs the Technics and both are very enjoyable. There’s certainly no night and day difference between the two on a casual listen nor on the recordings I made.

[John]

OK John, thanks for posting some of the finer setup details and your thoughts/opinions about the sound of the three decks, but -and please don't take this the wrong way- can we assume that this A/B/C was not blind for you as it was for us? ...Enjoying your time and effort here, looking forward to your future A/B's.

No, it wasn’t blind. I had to know which was which. When I have the opportunity to sort out the belts, I’ll put the best combo of each out here for those interested including the Technics. Those will be line recordings which will sound significantly better.

[tpetsch]

No, it wasn’t blind. I had to know which was which. When I have the opportunity to sort out the belts, I’ll put the best combo of each out here for those interested including the Technics. Those will be line recordings which will sound significantly better.

Thanks for that explanation & clarification John..

I just listened to the song “Taxi” by Harry Chapin live on the LP12 Blue belt vs the Technics and both are very enjoyable. There’s certainly no night and day difference between the two on a casual listen nor on the recordings I made.

I agree, it's all Coke vs. Pepsi John and a never ending hobby for that "perfect" sound that we sometimes come very close to achieving but somehow never quite manage to reach. Everyone should make their own choices in the end. ...And sorry, but in the interim I added more content to my above comment.

[Charlie1]

I've had another listen now that I know what's what. I still like the Technics clip most, but am changing my mind on the Linn belts and prefer the normal one. Thanks for sharing the clips John.

[Whatsmynaim]

tpetsch - Yes. The YYY sounds a bit fat but I can't agree it sounds artificial. If something artificial was added it wouldn't be able to present the song with that much emotion. Right?
I must admit the Technics was shockingly good at rocking out on that earlier track. On this one the singer sounded sleepy.

By the way, did you change the quality to 720p HD when listening? The HD option affects not only video but the sound quality as well.

[John]

tpetsch - Yes. The YYY sounds a bit fat but I can't agree it sounds artificial. If something artificial was added it wouldn't be able to present the song with that much emotion. Right?
I must admit the Technics was shockingly good at rocking out on that earlier track. On this one the singer sounded sleepy.

By the way, did you change the quality to 720p HD when listening? The HD option affects not only video but the sound quality as well.

Just to be clear, the recordings were from an iPhone 8 with the video setting at “1080p HD at 30fps.

[tpetsch]

tpetsch - Yes. The YYY sounds a bit fat but I can't agree it sounds artificial. If something artificial was added it wouldn't be able to present the song with that much emotion. Right?
I must admit the Technics was shockingly good at rocking out on that earlier track. On this one the singer sounded sleepy.

By the way, did you change the quality to 720p HD when listening? The HD option affects not only video but the sound quality as well.

Hi Whatsmynaim, I can really only speak from my own experience owning and listening to LP12's over the past 35 years & working at a Linn/Naim shop on and off for 20 or so years. I loved my LP12's and many of my friends owned them too, many at my recommendation, some still do, some now hear what I'm talking about, and some others don't.

For me it first happened when I heard a friends "RP"8 ten or so years ago -man time fly's- , my friend being an exLinn/Naim dealer for over 30 years -now retired- and a diehard multiple LP12 owner consisting of ranging builds, not to mention all the LP12 builds that we had set up on Demo in the shop over the years. We both thought that Rega was really on to something here but saying that, I wasn't quite ready to give up on my LP12 at that time for the RP8 just yet because it seemed to me more of a lateral move at that time.

Jump ahead several years to the P10, my dealer friend picks one up and says to me "you need to hear this" ...I did and there was no going back to the LP12 for me, or for him after. The P10 was so fast, accurate & musical, more of an instrument that surgically extracts only what is on the vinyl without adding or passing along any sound characteristics of the deck itself, each track of each album it seems to me simply relays the qualitys of the intended mastering, very much unlike the LP12 IMO which adds an inherent and ultimately subliminally / fatiguing & bloated coloration on every track of every album, every recording as a result starts to sound the same, makes me want to stop listening to Lp's after an hour and do something else. The P10 has made me aware of this LP12 flaw and once I realized this and became aware of it, it can never again -for me- be unheard, and now I'm quite sensitive to it.

With the P10 I find myself playing full album sides and listening for hours on end without fatigue, and I'm discovering more music that I have owned for years that on the LP12 in retrospect simply just didn't register.
Now I've heard some call the P10 "Lean Sounding" and that the LP12 has more 'Body & Fullness". But I'll add that if "Body & Fullness" of a track is in the mastering/recording then the P10 will reproduce it accurately and as intended, the P10 does not artificially add fullness or bass, weight or whatever if it's not there in the groove to begin with.
Again, this is "my" experience and my 2¢.

[lejonklou]

I would appreciate giving these files a listen. New belts and level matched.

ZZZ - https://www.dropbox.com/s/0b4vwnailx4y2 ... Z.MOV?dl=0

YYY - https://www.dropbox.com/s/me4x2eoq0ncbg ... Y.MOV?dl=0

XXX - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ld7lcscgxeonh ... X.MOV?dl=0

Sorry for being late to the party. Got stuck with an electronic problem. Listened just now and think YYY is the best, followed by XXX and then ZZZ.

Now I’m going to read what I voted for.

[lejonklou]

OK, so it seems I voted for the LP12 again. Can I ask what the specifications of the deck are? Sorry if it’s already been asked and replied to.

I can add that my impression was that ZZZ (LP12 with blue belt) was rather annoying and much worse than YYY that followed. ZZZ was not annoying, it was straightforward and enjoyable, but I felt it was missing something. The playing wasn’t as delicate and enjoyable as in YYY.

I only listened to the first 15 seconds of each clip.

[John]

OK, so it seems I voted for the LP12 again. Can I ask what the specifications of the deck are? Sorry if it’s already been asked and replied to.

I can add that my impression was that ZZZ (LP12 with blue belt) was rather annoying and much worse than YYY that followed. ZZZ was not annoying, it was straightforward and enjoyable, but I felt it was missing something. The playing wasn’t as delicate and enjoyable as in YYY.

I only listened to the first 15 seconds of each clip.

Cirkus, Recapped Lingo 1, Greenstreet subchassis, Tiger Paw Khan, Ekos 2, Goldring rebuilt Klyde, newer motor, solid Linn baseboard modified with brass cones on Symposium Segue platform on phase four Mana Reference top on 5 tier amp rack on two soundstages.

[tpetsch]

Cirkus, Recapped Lingo 1, Greenstreet subchassis, Tiger Paw Khan, Ekos 2, Goldring rebuilt Klyde, newer motor, solid Linn baseboard modified with brass cones on Symposium Segue platform on phase four Mana Reference top on 5 tier amp rack on two soundstages.

Or in other words, way #1467 to build up an LP12, yet it still retains that signature LP12 DNA sound. Although -respectfully- somewhat less "InTune" IMO.

[Whatsmynaim]

Hi tpetsch and thanks for the in depth reply. I don't think many of us here is loyal to a fault. If something betters Linn we buy it.
I used to own Linn amps and are now using Lejonklou. Most of us here is also ready to look behind the sound and wouldn't care less if something sounds fat or lean as long it's more musical. With that where are all the Rega P10 owners?
The P10 launched in 2019 and if it's better than the LP12 this forum should be full of people raving about it by now.
But you've peaked my interest and would love if someone posted clips so we all can compare.

[Charlie1]

I tried a P10 at home. Great HiFi, speed stability, and pace to the music, but ultimately it didn't make me want to swap it for any of my LP12s.

Happened to hear the entry level Vertere the other week. Very good sound but didn't inspire me to try it at home.

[Tendaberry]

Tpetsch, I really cannot understand this about the bloated sound of the LP12, it's not something I recognise in mine. But then again, the Radikal and Keel may have cured that...

[Charlie1]

Yeah, me neither. An early 80s system can sound quite well balanced. CB Naim amps and early Linn speakers worked very well together with the LP12 of that time. But mixed with the wrong gear and yes, it can sound bloated, overly warm, etc.

[Lego]

I think quite a few people on here underestimate the importance of the setup of an LP12, so for me fleeting statements like a P10 is better than an Lp12 is almost risible and getting close to misinformation..My LP12 set up by, fill in the blank ,sounded worse than P10 would be much more informative.It's very easy to make any level of LP12 sound musically worse than a Rega 2.

The Regas and and LP12s are very good turntables and both should be musically very enjoyable to listen to.If everything is set up correctly one should not make the other sound broken.

[lejonklou]

Yeah, me neither. An early 80s system can sound quite well balanced. CB Naim amps and early Linn speakers worked very well together with the LP12 of that time. But mixed with the wrong gear and yes, it can sound bloated, overly warm, etc.

I have never experienced this (bloated etc) in any system. And I’ve heard LP12’s in a lot of systems, old and new.

As soon as the source is good (and in my opinion a well set up LP12 without any strange parts is one of the best sources there is), the whole system is taken to a new and higher level. No downsides, drawbacks, side effects or need to “match” the parts. Just better.

[tpetsch]

Yeah, me neither. An early 80s system can sound quite well balanced. CB Naim amps and early Linn speakers worked very well together with the LP12 of that time. But mixed with the wrong gear and yes, it can sound bloated, overly warm, etc.

My system is all Naim Chrome Bumper. 32.5/HC, NAXO 3-6/HC, 3xNap250, Isobarik DMS speakers. My P10 has a Aphelion II cartridge and I'm using Regas Aura Phono stage. The P10 has breathed new life into this "80's" system in a way that I thought not possible. I can just offer my experience, the LP12 is a fine deck, always loved mine, but the P10 -for me anyway- does NOT leave wanting anymore, for the time being anyway until I hear something better "for me".

And I do recall A clip I posted a little while back Charlie where you said something along the lines of "I'd be very happy with that system" so in a blind test you did like it. ...Now the P10 may not be for you, I believe you thought it sounded "fast" from when we spoke in a PM but for me that "fast" sound is simply not smearing of the notes such as a fast sharp piano note, in real life that too sounds/and decays fast, doesn't linger, the P10 is just more accurate in that way, more lifelike. For me I was instantly drawn to the P10, but for you perhaps not so much.

[tpetsch]

Yeah, me neither. An early 80s system can sound quite well balanced. CB Naim amps and early Linn speakers worked very well together with the LP12 of that time. But mixed with the wrong gear and yes, it can sound bloated, overly warm, etc.

I have never experienced this (bloated etc) in any system. And I’ve heard LP12’s in a lot of systems, old and new.

As soon as the source is good (and in my opinion a well set up LP12 without any strange parts is one of the best sources there is), the whole system is taken to a new and higher level. No downsides, drawbacks, side effects or need to “match” the parts. Just better.

Just curious, have you heard a P10 that was "well set up", an honest install where you massaged it into your system with proper care, proper plug strip, proper plug slot, proper grounding, interconnects perhaps, proper rack, you know what I'm talking about, and all settled in after a month a month or so? And I reccomend the Aphelion II if you give one a try, the Apheta III doesn't really work for me ...Well, I own a P10 and I took all that care, and for me the P10 is a game changer when compared to my LP12 which was all Linn BTW, no 'Strange parts" and a few my friends Linns too which we have now slotted several of into my system to compare, and yes, a bloated unnatural fullness from all those LP12 was smeared on everything we played, maybe that's part of that P10 "fastness" some people feel they hear? But have no doubt, my deck is spinning at 33.33.

[tpetsch]

I think quite a few people on here underestimate the importance of the setup of an LP12, so for me fleeting statements like a P10 is better than an Lp12 is almost risible and getting close to misinformation..My LP12 set up by, fill in the blank ,sounded worse than P10 would be much more informative.It's very easy to make any level of LP12 sound musically worse than a Rega 2.

The Regas and and LP12s are very good turntables and both should be musically very enjoyable to listen to.If everything is set up correctly one should not make the other sound broken.

"Fleeting statement"?, "Misinformation"?. ...How am I supposed to have an intelligent conversation with you ?
The P10 is better for me, and I explained fully why I feel that way in previous posts and my history working with/around and owning LP12's for 35 years, did you take the time to read any of my post. The LP12 is just another deck, it's not God sent although you may feel that way, and I can understand how it may make one feel good being amongst a community of supporters for the product.

And BTW, your scaring people away from LP12's by giving the impression that they are so sensitive and that how the slightest assembly mis-step sends them into eternal Out of Tuneness. Why would anyone want to own such a fragile and sensitive thing where every time you think something sounds a little off you run back to your Linn "specialist" for it's checkup? ...And beware, -hint-hint- not every "socalled" Linn specialist is really a Linn specialist, there are just really only a few out there that really know what their doing..

[tpetsch]

Tpetsch, I really cannot understand this about the bloated sound of the LP12, it's not something I recognize in mine. But then again, the Radikal and Keel may have cured that...

Well, I didn't know it was there either until I added the P10 to my system and this seemingly inherent phenomenon was reviled to me -and friends of mine- again and again. But at the end of the day do all fundamental LP12's using factory parts really sound all that much different? ...I mean like a totally different deck different?

[lejonklou]

Just curious, have you heard a P10 that was "well set up"

I have never listened to a Rega P10.

[tpetsch]

tpetsch - Yes. The YYY sounds a bit fat but I can't agree it sounds artificial. If something artificial was added it wouldn't be able to present the song with that much emotion. Right?
I must admit the Technics was shockingly good at rocking out on that earlier track. On this one the singer sounded sleepy.

By the way, did you change the quality to 720p HD when listening? The HD option affects not only video but the sound quality as well.

Ok, so just for the sake of argument, you concur that YYY sounds a bit fat, fair? ...and I understand that this deck that played YYY consists of Non-Linn parts, so that may have contributed, I have not heard every makeup possible of LP12, I admit that. ...But my personal experience now after living with the P10 is that all LP12's that I have heard have that fatness you also heard, and I say "artificial" because I can now hear that fatness on all recordings played on an LP12, artificial because all recordings do not sound fat or overly inflated, bloated. ...The P10 in my experience simply & accurately -for one- translates what is in the groove, period. If the recording sounds a little fat then the P10 will accurately relay that sound and too sound a little fat, if the recording sounds a little thin then the P10 will relay that too, the P10 will not make the lean track sound fatter or fuller by comparison, this is what I mean by artificial.. ...I also believe that when you read in forums where someone might comment that to them the P10 sounded a little "thin" compared to their LP12, this is because -I believe- the P10 didn't add any of that fatness to the performance as that listener recalls it did on the LP12, the listener may also comment that the LP12 sounded "fuller" or "filled the room" instead of fatter. The LP12 seems to add this fullness without severely effecting The Tune, or the emotion you felt, in fact one might argue that the emotion you felt was somewhat enhanced by that fatness/fullness. ...But believe me, no emotion is lost on the P10, in fact for me the P10 does everything I liked about the LP12 but without the LP12's underlying DNA fingerprint "air" surrounding/engulfing every performance spun upon it. And yes, perhaps Linns new Klimax uber decks may address these issues now that they have come to light, I can't say, and I don't hate the LP12. I'm just now aware of it's fundamental flaws after 35 years on the decks I have heard, and still hear that my friends still own, or until the next deck comes along that makes me aware of the flaws of the P10??