Playground for practical listening exercises

[lejonklou]

I don't know why, but I found the first two posts with clips from largo quite difficult. I can't quite connect to them.

xe versus ye was however easy. xe is clearly better IMHO!

In Charlie's clips, I find it easy to prefer 33 rpm. 33 is groovy, 45 is stiff.

[Charlie1]

Has anyone compared 33 vs 45 rpm on a direct drive turntable? Maybe it’s a belt drive phenomenon.

[lejonklou]

Has anyone compared 33 vs 45 rpm on a direct drive turntable? Maybe it’s a belt drive phenomenon.

I haven't, but I've been thinking the same thing. The LP12 was developed as a 33.3 rpm device, while 45 rpm was added later. It's possible there are a number of design details that are optimised for 33.3 rpm.

[largo]

I don't know why, but I found the first two posts with clips from largo quite difficult. I can't quite connect to them.

xe versus ye was however easy. xe is clearly better IMHO!

The bottom line to me is, that it seems the Sagatun is a great companion to a KRDSM/1, but it isn't so much for a ADSM/1. To me this was a very interesting and surprising comparison to make.

[beck]

Has anyone compared 33 vs 45 rpm on a direct drive turntable? Maybe it’s a belt drive phenomenon.

I haven't, but I've been thinking the same thing. The LP12 was developed as a 33.3 rpm device, while 45 rpm was added later. It's possible there are a number of design details that are optimised for 33.3 rpm.

As we optimise many things to get the most musical result I do not find it impossible that there is a “best” speed for a record to be turned around to pass the music on to us.
Still, many questions remains to be answered regarding this subject.

[beck]

I now think that I have narrowed down the problem with 33.3 versus 45 rpm. Listen and compare the same 45 rpm track:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zip18zvh6a639 ... 0.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hcvax3a48j32 ... 1.mov?dl=0

[Charlie1]

They are good clips that clearly demonstrate similar differences to previous examples, but the penny hasn't dropped in any way for me. I can still best sum it up at less satisfying at 45rpm. 33rpm seems to form a better 'whole' performance but I've had situations where that aspect doesn't mean I enjoy the music best overall, although I know we 'sometimes' differ in that respect.

[beck]

They are good clips that clearly demonstrate similar differences to previous examples, but the penny hasn't dropped in any way for me. I can still best sum it up at less satisfying at 45rpm. 33rpm seems to form a better 'whole' performance but I've had situations where that aspect doesn't mean I enjoy the music best overall, although I know we 'sometimes' differ in that respect.

They are both 45 rpm!

I had hoped that the above clips could say something about it being a problem centeret around friction between record and stylus/record and felt mat. Maybe not.
Maybe they just show that a clamp is not the solution! :-)

[Charlie1]

They are both 45 rpm!

I had hoped that the above clips could say something about it being a problem centeret around friction between record and stylus/record and felt mat. Maybe not.
Maybe they just show that a clamp is not the solution! :-)

Ha!
I don't like the clamp one.
I was gonna ask what that orange thing was on the second clip and then forgot :)

[lejonklou]

I now think that I have narrowed down the problem with 33.3 versus 45 rpm. Listen and compare the same 45 rpm track:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zip18zvh6a639 ... 0.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hcvax3a48j32 ... 1.mov?dl=0

First clip is better!

I see there's an orange thing on the spindle in the second clip. If it's a weight or a clamp, I can say that I've never found any such thing to improve the music. And I've tried many.

[beck]

I now think that I have narrowed down the problem with 33.3 versus 45 rpm. Listen and compare the same 45 rpm track:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zip18zvh6a639 ... 0.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hcvax3a48j32 ... 1.mov?dl=0

First clip is better!

I see there's an orange thing on the spindle in the second clip. If it's a weight or a clamp, I can say that I've never found any such thing to improve the music. And I've tried many.

I agree. Sorry for the interruption :-)

[Charlie1]

I'm sure we can handle 2-3 topics at once on here :)

Really sorry for anyone totally sick and tired if this topic, but this pre-1st / source-1st thing is annoying me again and I just wanted to share a clear illustration. Well, in the room it's clear.

My setup has been pre-1st for sometime. I played Bruce Cockburn 'Dancing in the Dragon's Jaws' this week, for the first time in a year or more. I know Fredrik likes this LP and, Beck, I think you would too. The first track started and it was not right at all. My old system with source-1st connected to the extension block was much better. The guitars and other sounds were now sounding all dissected and put back together slightly out of sync with one another. I switched to source-1st and it was much better, probably not as good as before, but much more satisfying.

So, I'm now thinking source-1st is best for me after all. Been a busy week and not listened much. This morning I put on 'The Union' by Elton John and Leon Russell. An album I quite enjoy and seem to recall Tom really likes. It was OK, but I occasionally thought the piano would be more in tune with pre-first. In fact, the whole album just sounded a bit 'heavy' and 'dense', like a lot of modern digital records can sound on my system. At the end of side one, I switched to pre-first and played the last track (clip below). Literally, the piano pitch changed and went up a fraction. In fact, the whole track lifted a bit. Like Fredrik said a few months ago that source-1st was a good grove but like all the musicians were looking down. Now switching to pre-1st, all the musicians looked up again and it was all more positive. I don't know anything about music, but it perhaps this is what it's like going from minor to major scale.

It's frustrating. I feel 80% of the time it's better with pre-1st. Beck would probably like 100% source-1st whilst Tom, tokenbrit and u252agz are probably 100% pre-1st. Not sure about Fredrik, Efraim and maffe. Hope you don't mind me calling out some regulars to this thread in recent months. Tune dem should be win/win, not win 80%/lose 20%. How can we ALL be happy 100% of the time and agree with one another, like the good old days!

Here's the clips, in the order I played them, although not sure how well it all comes across in clips:

Dragon's Jaws' - pre1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yljvj6x74x3xv ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Dragon's Jaws' - rad1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f1ws3y96nj3wz ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Union - rad1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7333e1zw1yai7 ... 5.MOV?dl=0
Union - pre1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhpf2txthvpgi ... 2.MOV?dl=0

[beck]

I will not go into this discussion again other than saying that Lejonklou performance is optimised with pre-first (my guess). I like dense as you know and hear things I like more in source first but would then also choose a pre-amp optimised with source first if I were to buy one. :-)

[Charlie1]

I will not go into this discussion again other than saying that Lejonklou performance is optimised with pre-first (my guess). I like dense as you know and hear things I like more in source first but would then also choose a pre-amp optimised with source first if I were to buy one. :-)

I had the same quandary with the 4200 though. Perhaps the 80/20 split was different but it was the same dilemma.

[beck]

I will not go into this discussion again other than saying that Lejonklou performance is optimised with pre-first (my guess). I like dense as you know and hear things I like more in source first but would then also choose a pre-amp optimised with source first if I were to buy one. :-)

I had the same quandary with the 4200 though. Perhaps the 80/20 split was different but it was the same dilemma.

Agreed. I hear two different directions with source/pre-first and mine is source first. Your setup is kind of in the middle but great sounding none the less.

[lejonklou]

I hear what you hear, Charlie. I find it very easy to compare these clips. There's some quality in Radikal first that is not present in source first, but with both songs, I am more deeply moved by Pre first.

And on Pre first Dancing in the Dragon's Jaws, I get really annoyed when the clip ends!

As I've said before, I think it might be possible to solve this by some new and unique distribution block - power cord arrangement. I just don't know how yet.

I will not go into this discussion again other than saying that Lejonklou performance is optimised with pre-first (my guess). I like dense as you know and hear things I like more in source first but would then also choose a pre-amp optimised with source first if I were to buy one. :-)

No, that's not correct. Charlie uses a Linn Klimax Kontrol pre amp and a Tundra power amp. When I developed Tundra, I also used a Klimax Kontrol and always placed sources first in the distribution block. So everything was optimised with sources placed first in the distribution block.

When I later heard that some thought Pre first sounded better, I tried that and found that I felt the same. And those who prefer sources first have done so regardless of products used. So I simply don't think it's possible to optimise or adapt the amps for this parameter.

[Charlie1]

I hear what you hear, Charlie.

Thanks Fredrik. I am glad to read that and help know that Beck and I are not crackers :)

As I've said before, I think it might be possible to solve this by some new and unique distribution block - power cord arrangement. I just don't know how yet.

What about Hydra, or have you never liked that?

[matthias]

As I've said before, I think it might be possible to solve this by some new and unique distribution block - power cord arrangement. I just don't know how yet.

What about Hydra, or have you never liked that?

Maybe a double row distribution block where mono devices could have the same rank for both channels like this:

|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|
|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|

or a triple one like this:

|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|
|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|
|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|

With the triple one the Radikal and two Sagatun Monos could have the same rank.

Matt

[tokenbrit]

Preferred pre-first, yes. I guess that makes me pre-dictable :)

These comparisons tend to remind me of my siblings learning piano. My sister was the technically more accomplished pianist, but my brother had a better feel for the piece(s) of music. It always sounded to me like my brother wanted to play whereas my sister was obliged to play... My brother gave up because he couldn't play well enough; my sister because she lost interest. Source first knocks the notes out (sis), but pre-first carries the tune (bro)

[beck]

I will not go into this discussion again other than saying that Lejonklou performance is optimised with pre-first (my guess). I like dense as you know and hear things I like more in source first but would then also choose a pre-amp optimised with source first if I were to buy one. :-)

No, that's not correct. Charlie uses a Linn Klimax Kontrol pre amp and a Tundra power amp. When I developed Tundra, I also used a Klimax Kontrol and always placed sources first in the distribution block. So everything was optimised with sources placed first in the distribution block.

When I later heard that some thought Pre first sounded better, I tried that and found that I felt the same. And those who prefer sources first have done so regardless of products used. So I simply don't think it's possible to optimise or adapt the amps for this parameter.

Thank you for clarifying Lejonklou.

It's frustrating. I feel 80% of the time it's better with pre-1st. Beck would probably like 100% source-1st whilst Tom, tokenbrit and u252agz are probably 100% pre-1st. Not sure about Fredrik, Efraim and maffe. Hope you don't mind me calling out some regulars to this thread in recent months. Tune dem should be win/win, not win 80%/lose 20%. How can we ALL be happy 100% of the time and agree with one another, like the good old days!

I understand your frustration but we live in an imperfect world so we have to make up our own minds in the end with the equipment we have.
I never think that we have been completely in agreement with each other but we have narrowed down our differences.
Or maybe that is just me. :-)

[Charlie1]

I understand your frustration but we live in an imperfect world so we have to make up our own minds in the end with the equipment we have.

Very true.

I never think that we have been completely in agreement with each other but we have narrowed down our differences.

I think the main thing is we can hear what the other person is preferring, even if we choose differently.

[lejonklou]

What about Hydra, or have you never liked that?

I am unsure whether the principle behind Hydra is right or wrong. The problem is that none of the designs I've tried sound as good as the best (and nearly always very cheap) standard distribution blocks.

So in my view the first step is to be able to assemble a standard distribution block that sounds better than the cheap commercial ones. The second step is to make a variation, such as the ones matthias suggested, with double or triple or quadruple rows.

[Charlie1]

I am unsure whether the principle behind Hydra is right or wrong. The problem is that none of the designs I've tried sound as good as the best (and nearly always very cheap) standard distribution blocks.

So in my view the first step is to be able to assemble a standard distribution block that sounds better than the cheap commercial ones. The second step is to make a variation, such as the ones matthias suggested, with double or triple or quadruple rows.

OK, thanks.

Maybe a double row distribution block where mono devices could have the same rank for both channels like this:

|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|
|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|

or a triple one like this:

|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|
|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|
|(:)(:)(:)(:)(:)|

With the triple one the Radikal and two Sagatun Monos could have the same rank.

Thanks matthias. I'm not confident enough with electrics to take this on myself, but good to understand the possibility.

[u252agz]

I


Dragon's Jaws' - pre1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yljvj6x74x3xv ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Dragon's Jaws' - rad1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f1ws3y96nj3wz ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Union - rad1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7333e1zw1yai7 ... 5.MOV?dl=0
Union - pre1st: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhpf2txthvpgi ... 2.MOV?dl=0

I'm afraid I still prefer Pre first - easier to hear on Dragons Jaws which sounds great with pre first.

For me source first is more impressive on sound, clarity etc , etc but I find Pre first much more musical, and so much more enjoyable.

Differences less marked on the second track but still Pre first .

[Charlie1]

Several changes to my LP12 in one hit so interested to know what you guys make of it all.

Recording 1:

• Worn Akiva
  Worn bearing (don't think it was too bad)
  Maple plinth
  Radikal motor in contact with Urika
  Several torqued fixings
  Unsure if this is pre-1st or radikal-1st

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8gki4abb11eag ... D.MOV?dl=0

Recording 2:

• New Krystal (still needs to be played in more)
  New bearing, inner and outer platter
  Oak plinth
  Radikal not touching Urika
  Fixings done by feel
  Pre-1st

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2k9fo7e2jkrnm ... .MOV?dl=0#

This is the only track I have to compare since the room was moved around, although you can't tell that from the video.

I don't think it comes across but the new setup is significantly less distorted. I feel a bit bad I let the Akiva go on so long as it was clearly well past it's best.

I find the new system more engaging and it has a calmness to it, similar to when I removed the Ethernet-over-mains units, but more so. The previous system seemed unsettled and agitated by comparison, although the bass performance had more slam and definition - which I'm guessing was in part due to the superior Akiva cartridge. The new system has clearer midrange and treble, with lower surface noise.

I'm happy overall and just glad to be playing some music again, although I'm having to work away a lot at the moment. Even had to turn down Thom Yorke tickets at the Roundhouse tonight cos I thought I'd be away - it's a small venue too so that's a blow.