Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Ron The Mon
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Post by Ron The Mon »

David Neel wrote: 2019-07-29 20:50 I've discovered something that was not quite equal in the last comparison. Can anybody hear a difference?

Track 1 (again!):
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xfe2i7m8bka6p ... 5.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6oim6dloytr0b ... 6.mp4?dl=0
Are we back to iTunes vs. JRiver? "A" is much better using tune-dem. "A" also has better rhythm and timing.

"B" seems to meander, is out of tune, and sounds like a heavy wool blanket was thrown over the piano by comparison.

If this is a comparison of ripping software, I may have results of my own to share in the next month or so. What I don't understand is why Linn recommend(ed) EAC. It is the worst sounding, hardest to use ripping software I've ever tried. It detoured me from using streamers for many years. After your last A/B, I went back and compared my best rip with my worst player vs. my worst rip with my best player, using the same disc, drive, cable, and NAS.

It is fascinating that source-first works every time!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

To try again with these clips I downloaded them onto my ipad.

Listening to them from my ipad (they do sound better this way) again and again (Spannko method) I came to the conclusion that when not trying to analyse anything (looking out the window) B makes less “noise” in my brain letting me relax more and disconnect from the world.
A makes my brain aware of the individuel instruments more and kind of force me to “listen” to them against my will.

As a relaxing piece of music before bedtime I would choose clip B.

The above as an observation of my reaction when exposed to the clips. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

The difference here is that both are iTunes rips, but one was ripped with error correction and the other without.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

David Neel wrote: 2019-07-30 13:06 The difference here is that both are iTunes rips, but one was ripped with error correction and the other without.
Very interesting indeed!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

Well, if it's not worth selling them, at least you have something to use for target practice!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

beck wrote: 2019-07-30 12:09 To try again with these clips I downloaded them onto my ipad.

Listening to them from my ipad (they do sound better this way) again and again (Spannko method) I came to the conclusion that when not trying to analyse anything (looking out the window) B makes less “noise” in my brain letting me relax more and disconnect from the world.
A makes my brain aware of the individuel instruments more and kind of force me to “listen” to them against my will.

As a relaxing piece of music before bedtime I would choose clip B.

The above as an observation of my reaction when exposed to the clips. Nothing more, nothing less.
I prefer B too, and by quite a big margin, especially when using the beck method of looking out of the window ;-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

David Neel wrote: 2019-07-29 20:50 I've discovered something that was not quite equal in the last comparison. Can anybody hear a difference?

Track 1 (again!):
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xfe2i7m8bka6p ... 5.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6oim6dloytr0b ... 6.mp4?dl=0
B wins for me because it better captures the whole and flows with a gentle, effortless pace. This made me really appreciate the piece.

A appears more informative, but I feel that what it adds doesn't improve the music or my understanding and appreciation of it. Rather the opposite.

Update: I just played A and B through the built-in speakers of my iPhone instead of headphones. Normally I detest how the phone sounds, but I wanted to let my wife hear. We both felt B was quite a bit better, while A didn't seem to develop or know where it was going.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

I'm not absolutely sure I know which of the last pair if clips is which! Having both tracks available to the control point simultaneously meant that I introduced a chance of confusion. (This applies only to the last pair of clips, where I shortcut my usual comparison process.) So before revealing which was which, I am going to repeat the comparison with other tracks. I may have to clear my dropbox of earlier clips when I do this later today.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

On the clips above, Even with the curtains closed I much prefer B.

Would be interesting to compare with different types of music.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

Here are some different tracks. The black video content is deliberate - the phone is resting camera down on an armrest, to minimise any problems with holding it steady. A and B remain the same throughout, to make life simpler. Preferences?

Track 1
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yus0d539vrivj ... 4.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gpfuzdl8shn7g ... 2.mp4?dl=0

Track 2
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wwekogn99xq7c ... 1.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jfqlobr5ij9nu ... 9.mp4?dl=0

Track 3
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9hn7159rgsk7c ... 7.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sl18otp1y7t94 ... 1.mp4?dl=0
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

What music is being played David?

I have listened both directly from the links and via download onto my ipad. I strongly recommend downloading them.

Whatever I did I ended up with B.

I think you are really onto something here David.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

beck wrote: 2019-07-31 22:42 What music is being played David?
1. Modul 17 - Nik Baertsch's Ronin - Live
2. The Cape - Martha Tilston - Lucy and the Wolves
3. Eg Veit I Himmerik Ei Borg - Tord Gustavsen Quartet - Extended Circle
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

I prefer A on all three tracks. Easier to follow and more together. A couple of the B versions come across as shouty.

I don't know what phone you are using but iPhones use a microphone next to the lens of the camera when you are recording from the camera app. So laying it down on that side will tend to muffle the sound.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

I'm using Samsung Note 9. I think the only mic is on the bottom edge, hence pointing that towards the speakers.

I have to disagree with beck this time - surprisingly because he identified my favourite on the single track where I was only 99% sure of which way round! But low-level info gets sacrificed on clips.

It's clearer in the room that one of these settings (B) is a bit more caffeinated and shouty, and that the other (A) is more natural and organic, with more air around each voice yet more integrated. The effect in the room varies, album to album, from small to significant. Some albums benefit from a small hike in volume (which was left unaltered in the clips). I suspect some (old and remastered poorly) recordings which have less low-level info might not benefit much at all.

However much I dread it, I'm going to have to re-rip nearly 200 CDs which were done with setting B. That's the bad news. The good news is that A was the version without error correction, so the re-rips will run much faster....

Thanks to all for entertaining the idea that error correction could make a difference.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

Ok, so A on these last three clips is without error correction? I leaned towards preferring them on a quick comparison.

That must mean that B in the previous comparison was without error correction. The differences were very similar (but with a reversed order).

So David, you've found that alac is the best for format and that iTunes sounds better than Jriver when ripping. And error correction should be turned off. Correct? Any other settings that are of importance?

I'm interested in whether there are actually any differences between the files with and without error correction. My guess is there isn't, perhaps with the exception of some bits in the metadata.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

Yes, the previous single track comparison had B as the uncorrected version. This time it was A.

Yes, I prefer iTunes/ALAC: to dbPoweramp/FLAC by a long way; to EAC/FLAC by a lesser margin; and also to JRiver/ALAC by a smaller margin still. I used error correction/secure mode/slow mode (as recommended for highest quality) with dbPoweramp and EAC, but not with JRiver (oversight - I didn't see the option). So there there may be gains by switching it off in other software, but my comparison was with the equivalent corrected setting in iTunes. And it could be that JRiver benefits from it, which I didn't try. These are currently unknowns, but I am rapidly losing the motivation/time to experiment further! If anybody else wants to pick up the baton....

I've seen no other settings in iTunes, it's really straightforward. If you want to analyse the files for differences, I can send you a Dropbox link.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

It is interesting that not using error correction sounds better. Maybe less “pressure” on the hardware in the proces?

It is comforting (to me) that taking more care and time listening to the last clips again I am changing my mind but clips from a system streaming music seems to be hard work for my ears to get around (still).

More important is the fact that you are getting somewhere David. That is the reason for doing it.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

That’s a brilliant bit of research David. Well done!

I’ve been using the Melco ripper since comparing it to iTunes (with error correction on) and slightly preferring the Melco. However the difference you demonstrated was much more musically significant than my test, so I’ll try again and post the results.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

ThomasOK wrote: 2019-08-01 19:27 I prefer A on all three tracks. Easier to follow and more together. A couple of the B versions come across as shouty.
I agree - A on these clips

I find them just more musical- the timing is better as were the B clips in the previous comparisons.

If it holds out in real life - definitely worth re ripping with the software which ripped A
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Much prefer A as well.

Makes me wonder how good digital could really be. It’s a finicky thing though isn’t it? I can’t be bothered with all the optimisation it would require.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

Digital is very finicky, as becomes obvious when you start playing with all the things that can change the musicality while still keeping all the digital bits there. Ripping drive, ripping software and settings, ripping computer, streaming computer, router, switch, SATA cables and direction, Ethernet cables and direction (and length), motherboards, RAM modules, SSD drives, cases, power supplies, furniture the pieces sit on, etc. They all have a role in the music you hear. So much for "lossless" transmission of data meaning no loss of musicality.

I would say that digital is even more finicky than analog, despite all the work I put into setting up LP12s, because it takes so much work just to make a digital source sound decent. Whereas any reasonable turntable can make enjoyable music with just a little tuning. Indeed, I have found that even what I used to consider junk turntables - you know the cheap plastic housed Japanese belt and direct drive tables from the 70s and 80s - can actually make pretty decent music when fitted with a cheap but good cartridge and adjusted properly. I think it is the constant bombardment with digital reproduction, most of it of questionable musicality, that makes you aware that those turntables weren't that bad after all. Even though they are still no match for a new, or 40 year old, Rega Planar 2 or 3.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

Whilst it may be difficult/ impossible to optimise all of the different aspects of digital reproduction, my experience is that a good NAS drive ( i have a combined ripper/ NAS) with a recommended NETGEAR switch and cables when combined with a good Linn streamer ( and a good digital recording) is enough to produce really good music.

It may not be in the same league as a well set up Klimax LP12 with a great Recording but good enough to access the huge library of music available digitally.

Ps

My old Rega Planar 3 ( now 35 yrs old) still sounds pretty good with Boazu and Komponent 110s ,
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

I've emerged for a break from my re-ripping marathon. Sorry these clips are not precisely volume-balanced.

A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e4yqiivnbt0w9 ... 6.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/09g9hjtch9yie ... 4.mp4?dl=0

The music is "Charleston", the first part of Erwin Schulhoff's Jazz Etuden.

Which do people prefer?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

B please Bob.

A sounds like the pianist had way too much strong coffee at breakfast.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

B here too. For me it's upright vs grand -A sounds ok until you listen to B, then you realise that A is (more than) a bit one dimensional. A just presents the main note that's struck whereas B includes the other notes in the chord and resonances that makes it sound like a real piano, piece, and performance.
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