Playground for practical listening exercises
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Hello Fredrik! Correct, in the meaning that her singing felt mechanical and flat.
In the normal version the phrasing is very sensitive, more in time I suppose and also more cantabile. Then again, an iPad is what it is even thou the large Pro model is superior compared to my smaller iPad Air.
Kind regards / Flowmotion
In the normal version the phrasing is very sensitive, more in time I suppose and also more cantabile. Then again, an iPad is what it is even thou the large Pro model is superior compared to my smaller iPad Air.
Kind regards / Flowmotion
Källa. Sagatun 1.4. Tundra 2.2. Quad ESL-57. LP12 Pre cirkus. Slipsik 5.1.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Ah OK, now that I know exactly what you mean by “Musical Understanding”, I agree 100% !
Could I suggest you incorporate the above definition into your Tune Method pdf? It’s an important piece of information which will help to make sure we’re all singing from the same hymn sheet!
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
+1, for all clips and all systems ... just a very small differences (as you say) ...beck wrote: ↑2020-07-24 20:47 For my part this is not an attack on the tune method. It is more a recognition that the clips we make can fool us in some areas more than others when talking about very, very small differences.
The method (using clips) when closing in on the instruments being or not being in tune is not accurate enough. Put it another way we are maybe not good enough when trying to decode the clips.
Regarding my clips I assure you that non of them sound out of tune in my room but one is relaxed and the other is a bit up tight sounding.
Yes, some time wards that I use are not so ... but it is in direction to clear the differences between two clips (or changes that are made or 2 lp / performances ...) not to make valuation of System or Tune Method ... :-)
And as Spannko say ... Never in my life have I heard a “good” system which plays out of tune! or as you say German Orchestra ...
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Vlado
Vlado
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Yes Spannko, excellent one ... to incorporate "Musical Understanding" in "Tune Method" ... of course if it is possible.Spannko wrote: ↑2020-07-25 00:37Ah OK, now that I know exactly what you mean by “Musical Understanding”, I agree 100% !
Could I suggest you incorporate the above definition into your Tune Method pdf? It’s an important piece of information which will help to make sure we’re all singing from the same hymn sheet!
Music First ...
Vlado
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
..I really should have worded my post differently to avoid confusion because tune dem rules, but
listening for the tune of different instruments is entry level stuff (think Rega Planar 3) and just the beginning
of the journey to musical understanding.
Many thanks to Fredrik for explaining the different steps and what I meant with my post.
listening for the tune of different instruments is entry level stuff (think Rega Planar 3) and just the beginning
of the journey to musical understanding.
Many thanks to Fredrik for explaining the different steps and what I meant with my post.
Last edited by Whatsmynaim on 2020-07-25 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
+1Whatsmynaim wrote: ↑2020-07-25 17:34
Many thanks to Fredrik for explaining the different steps.............
It is great to have you and Flowmotion taking part in the discussions. What a great one that came out of my cd clips.
😃
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
From reading other posts here my view might be controversial though it's not intended to be.
I believe it's possible to have your cake and eat it with the right HiFi system, i.e. you can have musicality and the detail of the individual instruments etc. When I was a member of Ronnie Scott's jazz club and listening to great jazz bands I experienced both and I don't see why I shouldn't from my HiFi. I re-read Martin Collom's piece from Stereophile and can't find fault with it or the TuneDem method. My ears don't allow me to be boxed in by a philosophy of listening. Each philosophy seems to me to try to describe what you experience from as close to live music as you can get.
IMHO Agent_Kith accurately describes HiFi as an illusion. We're using electronics in an attempt to re-create with accuracy what happened in the recording. It's a very rewarding illusion which might explain the two new DACs that I ordered!
I believe it's possible to have your cake and eat it with the right HiFi system, i.e. you can have musicality and the detail of the individual instruments etc. When I was a member of Ronnie Scott's jazz club and listening to great jazz bands I experienced both and I don't see why I shouldn't from my HiFi. I re-read Martin Collom's piece from Stereophile and can't find fault with it or the TuneDem method. My ears don't allow me to be boxed in by a philosophy of listening. Each philosophy seems to me to try to describe what you experience from as close to live music as you can get.
IMHO Agent_Kith accurately describes HiFi as an illusion. We're using electronics in an attempt to re-create with accuracy what happened in the recording. It's a very rewarding illusion which might explain the two new DACs that I ordered!
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Thank you, good idea.Spannko wrote: ↑2020-07-25 00:37Ah OK, now that I know exactly what you mean by “Musical Understanding”, I agree 100% !
Could I suggest you incorporate the above definition into your Tune Method pdf? It’s an important piece of information which will help to make sure we’re all singing from the same hymn sheet!
I have rewritten that text a couple of times and will do so again after my vacation. It's interesting to note that each time I re-read it, I feel the need to change some parts. This is mainly thanks to the discussions in here! It's not only a question of wording, but I feel that we're continually taking small steps closer to a better and more complete understanding of what we mean by a tuneful HiFi system.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
FairPlayMotty, do you have a link to that piece by Martin Colloms?
It's important to know that the Tune Method is not a philosophy of listening. It's only a method of evaluation; which is better, A or B?FairPlayMotty wrote: ↑2020-07-25 22:22 My ears don't allow me to be boxed in by a philosophy of listening.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I would say you are right, but I never felt relying on tune dem must mean you sacrifice something. It only makes the music even more exciting and on many recordings you get tons of detail but in a way that makes sense. Something well recorded played on an LP12 is the most hifi I ever heard because it almost sounds like a real performance! So there you have the cake and can still eat it.FairPlayMotty wrote: ↑2020-07-25 22:22 I believe it's possible to have your cake and eat it with the right HiFi system, i.e. you can have musicality and the detail of the individual instruments etc.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
The Hakai does it more for me than vinyl. It's a huge turnaround for me. I used to play vinyl almost exclusively. My Ikemi never did it for me. Since moving house my turntable, PSU and phone stage are in a cupboard. They'll come out soon but the Hakai sounds better to me and if someone had told me that a year before the Hakai I would have laughed out loud. Life has good surprises if your mind remains open.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
https://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.htmllejonklou wrote: ↑2020-07-26 00:08 FairPlayMotty, do you have a link to that piece by Martin Colloms?
It's important to know that the Tune Method is not a philosophy of listening. It's only a method of evaluation; which is better, A or B?FairPlayMotty wrote: ↑2020-07-25 22:22 My ears don't allow me to be boxed in by a philosophy of listening.
I know TuneDem is a method of evaluation Fredrik but to read some comments on the internet it's almost like a cult. Martin Colloms takes an unfair beating all over the internet. I see the approach he describes and TuneDem as frameworks for the somewhat tricky business of evaluation. If I was a betting man I'd wager some other brave soul will suggest another framework in the next decade.
Martin Colloms wrote a more detailed piece and I believe he wrote an attempt to rebut the unnecessary and savage criticism he received. I bookmarked them some time back. If I find them I'll post those. I had respect for him early in my HiFi journey - I bought my first HiFi loudspeakers when I was young based on his review and listening to them.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
In my head it has always been about how close hifi could get to something real! To me it is not close.
My reference point is outside the hifi world.
Starting with the recording we loose a lot of information and it only goes downhill from there.
I my mind we are searching for a “miniature” world that can bring the emotion across. We hunt for as much “unchanged” information in a weak signal from far, far away. 😃
I think our different approaches are part of what makes the discussions interesting.
My reference point is outside the hifi world.
Starting with the recording we loose a lot of information and it only goes downhill from there.
I my mind we are searching for a “miniature” world that can bring the emotion across. We hunt for as much “unchanged” information in a weak signal from far, far away. 😃
I think our different approaches are part of what makes the discussions interesting.
Playing cd’s…………
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
One thing I like about the tune dem method is that it's easy to pick which one is better but it doesn't necessarily bind you to the better item.lejonklou wrote: ↑2020-07-26 00:08 FairPlayMotty, do you have a link to that piece by Martin Colloms?
It's important to know that the Tune Method is not a philosophy of listening. It's only a method of evaluation; which is better, A or B?FairPlayMotty wrote: ↑2020-07-25 22:22 My ears don't allow me to be boxed in by a philosophy of listening.
I remember listening to a friend's Tukans and they were definitely more tuneful than my Kan IIs but when I went back to my Kans I could easily forget about the Tukans.
What I'd like to know is what is it that makes the inferior one sound so broken that you can't go back !?
I know that tune
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
To me this was the part of the many pages in the Colloms article that stuck out:
"Is beauty sufficient in itself?
There is a real danger that the audiophile community---manufacturers, critics, and customers alike---has become obsessed with the search for absolute beauty in reproduced sound and has lost sight of the underlying animal force essential to a truly musical experience. Drama, surprise, and dance elements are essential to most music at almost every level of taste."
https://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html
It's a long read. Obviously the sections on digital music have aged. That's inevitable as time passes.
"Is beauty sufficient in itself?
There is a real danger that the audiophile community---manufacturers, critics, and customers alike---has become obsessed with the search for absolute beauty in reproduced sound and has lost sight of the underlying animal force essential to a truly musical experience. Drama, surprise, and dance elements are essential to most music at almost every level of taste."
https://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html
It's a long read. Obviously the sections on digital music have aged. That's inevitable as time passes.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
A relevant quate even today.FairPlayMotty wrote: ↑2020-07-28 01:55 To me this was the part of the many pages in the Colloms article that stuck out:
"Is beauty sufficient in itself?
There is a real danger that the audiophile community---manufacturers, critics, and customers alike---has become obsessed with the search for absolute beauty in reproduced sound and has lost sight of the underlying animal force essential to a truly musical experience. Drama, surprise, and dance elements are essential to most music at almost every level of taste."
https://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html
It's a long read. Obviously the sections on digital music have aged. That's inevitable as time passes.
Playing cd’s…………
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Yeah, I liked that too. I thought it was very well written overall.
The only thought I had is, 'do audiophiles need attributes like "purity" in order to enjoy their music the way we need "tunefulness" and "good timing" to enjoy ours?'. Are we doing them a disservice? Perhaps many of them enjoy music as much as us - perhaps they just have different sensititives and therefore have different requirements to take them there.
The only thought I had is, 'do audiophiles need attributes like "purity" in order to enjoy their music the way we need "tunefulness" and "good timing" to enjoy ours?'. Are we doing them a disservice? Perhaps many of them enjoy music as much as us - perhaps they just have different sensititives and therefore have different requirements to take them there.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Some people are literally tone deaf (they suffer from a condition called amusia) and are unable to detect or reproduce the pitch of a note, so it’s possible that other elements of the reproduced sound become more important to them. People with amusia are able to recognise rhythm, so they can still enjoy listening to music.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
I enjoyed the article too. However I'm not sure who is an 'audiophile' if readers or writer are not. Or is it a term used mainly to denigrate?Charlie1 wrote: ↑2020-07-28 08:12 Yeah, I liked that too. I thought it was very well written overall.
The only thought I had is, 'do audiophiles need attributes like "purity" in order to enjoy their music the way we need "tunefulness" and "good timing" to enjoy ours?'. Are we doing them a disservice? Perhaps many of them enjoy music as much as us - perhaps they just have different sensititives and therefore have different requirements to take them there.
Take the test 😀 https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/audiophil ... eal-truth/
Pete
Linn Axis, Slipsik, Källa, Boazu, Espeks
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Great link Pete! Guilty of audiophile tendencies :-)springwood64 wrote: ↑2020-07-28 20:02
I enjoyed the article too. However I'm not sure who is an 'audiophile' if readers or writer are not. Or is it a term used mainly to denigrate?
Take the test 😀 https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/audiophil ... eal-truth/
I bought my house with my HiFi in mind. Question ten got me. On a business trip to Tokyo I found pressings of albums by Steely Dan, The Velvet Underground, Nick Drake etc. I hadn't seen before or heard of. I already had the albums but couldn't help myself. Kid in a candy store.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Yep, for lack of a better one. Maybe a bit lazy on my part.
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Comparing vinyl and cd playback again:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4m2lo1s1dncl ... 8.mov?dl=0
Turn volume one notch down before listening to the cd clip.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t7e1o4yvxvxtd ... 3.mov?dl=0
Not completely equal using a “new” old lk100 and years between the clips. Later I will try using the same amp and post here if it makes a difference.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4m2lo1s1dncl ... 8.mov?dl=0
Turn volume one notch down before listening to the cd clip.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t7e1o4yvxvxtd ... 3.mov?dl=0
Not completely equal using a “new” old lk100 and years between the clips. Later I will try using the same amp and post here if it makes a difference.
Playing cd’s…………
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Last post from me comparing vinyl and cd replay in my system using the same amp in both clips.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dh1sb7kfhu7s ... 9.mov?dl=0
No adjustment of volume.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwfe9jv9c0akz ... 2.mov?dl=0
(Sorry about the old vinyl clip not starting at once)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dh1sb7kfhu7s ... 9.mov?dl=0
No adjustment of volume.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwfe9jv9c0akz ... 2.mov?dl=0
(Sorry about the old vinyl clip not starting at once)
Playing cd’s…………
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Hi Beck,beck wrote: ↑2020-08-09 12:08 Comparing vinyl and cd playback again:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4m2lo1s1dncl ... 8.mov?dl=0
Turn volume one notch down before listening to the cd clip.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t7e1o4yvxvxtd ... 3.mov?dl=0
Not completely equal using a “new” old lk100 and years between the clips. Later I will try using the same amp and post here if it makes a difference.
Long time no see :-).
Very good choice of music and (also for) comparison. Vocal with Back vocal and how they are playing between each other and rest of the band is special here and help to recognize everything in this comparison ...
Typical differences between LP/analog and CD/digital. Musicality of your CD come very close to LP, but there are still differences ... which is OK/normal and what is most important make you happy.
You relay go several steps forward ..... enjoy :-)
Music First ...
Vlado
Vlado
Re: Playground for practical listening exercices
Here the differences are even smaller ...beck wrote: ↑2020-08-09 16:17 Last post from me comparing vinyl and cd replay in my system using the same amp in both clips.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dh1sb7kfhu7s ... 9.mov?dl=0
No adjustment of volume.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwfe9jv9c0akz ... 2.mov?dl=0
(Sorry about the old vinyl clip not starting at once)
Music First ...
Vlado
Vlado