Playground for practical listening exercises

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Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote:The direction is indicated by the Linn logo which is rotated by 90 degrees and then makes a sort of an arrow. From memory, this could be against the text, but I’m not really sure - it’s been a long time!
Oh
tokenbrit
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

Spannko wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:
Matteo wrote:Are the K20 directional?
Yep, it has faint wording on it indicating the direction.
The direction is indicated by the Linn logo which is rotated by 90 degrees and then makes a sort of an arrow. From memory, this could be against the text, but I’m not really sure - it’s been a long time!
Yes, with the 'arrow'; "against the text" - same as the interconnects
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Don't know if I mentioned but I really like k20, probably even more than I dd 2 mins ago.

Thank you Spannko and Matteo!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

Same on your soldered Kan?
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

No, I assumed it was soldered the wrong way and was gonna ask Colin to swap it round during my next visit. Guess I won't be doing that now though. In my defence, the logo is minuscule, but I should have checked.

Anyway, enough about me, back to Tom's clips :D
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

Charlie1 wrote: .. back to Tom's clips :D
I voted 2 :)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

Another vote for 2, but on first listen I thought it was going to be 3.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

I'm leaning towards the first.

Second is different and very close.

Third I don't like at all.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

It’s 2, 3, 1 for me.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry »

1 is nice and bouncy, Rickie has a sweet voice. On 2 her voice sounds strained, don't care much for no. 3.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

Interesting comments on the clips. I note that most rate clip 3 last and had comments such as "sounds slightly weird", "3 quirks", "Third I don't like at all." and "don't care much for no. 3". Overall 2 was definitely the favorite but 1 was close and preferred by some. This echoes my own listening tests both to the clips and in the room. I prefer clip 2 but I also hear the sweetness in the voice on 1 compared to two. But I still like 2 better overall as I feel it bounces along better.

So what is going on?
Clip 3 is a customer Klimax LP12 with Harban cocobolo plinth and with the Radikal motor pressing on the Urika foot.
Clip 2 is the same turntable after the mod to space the bottom of the motor away from the foot.
Clip 1 is the store demo Klimax LP12 with stock Linn walnut plinth.

I wanted to do these clips so that I could capture the problems caused by the contact of the Radikal motor and Trampolin foot for all to hear. It does sound weird and quirky because it really messes with the rhythmic structure and the tonality, especially in the bass but in the voice as well. I also hear more obvious surface noise on clip 3. When my customer brought the cocobolo LP12 in the store for me to check I first listened to and recorded the two tables and I definitely felt the store unit, on which I had done the mod as soon as I heard about it, was easily musically better. Then I performed the mod and recorded it again on clip 2 which I felt was a bit better than the store unit before I listened to the clips. Of course, those were separated by over a half hour so I wasn't sure until listening to the clips. So much for the idea that it "isn't a problem, per se" which even some well regarded LP12 technicians seem to go along with.

By the way, the cocobolo LP12 had been gone over by me less than a year ago, before I heard about the Radikal motor problem. But it had all the latest setup techniques, including the proper tracking force adjustment brought to light here. So I did nothing to the table other than the mod. The differences between it and the store walnut LP12 can be partly due to differences in amount of time on the cartridges and the inevitable unit to unit variations but are mostly due to the musical differences caused by the plinth. They are consistent with the differences I have heard between the cocobolo plinths and a stock Linn walnut, maple or cherry. The differences musically between those three are slight but cocobolo is the second most musical wood I have heard after movingui (although I suspect Macassar ebony is right up there).

One of the best indications of the improvement this mod makes is the reaction of the customer. He has a Klimax Exakt system with EKDSM and EK350As, Harmoni rack, Archidee turntable stand and the cocobolo LP12. One of his friends, who has an all analog setup with Radikal/Majik LP12, Lejonklou electronics and original Isobariks, had remarked to me that the cocobolo owner hardly listened to his LP12 anymore generally just sticking to streaming, which he found a bit weird. I told the cocobolo owner that he should bring in his LP12 so I could check it and he did so a few weeks back. Even though I was already sure it would need it from both the sound and the 64.5mm plinth height, I did the paper test which was quite conclusive. He was just in a couple days ago and told me that since he got the LP12 back a few weeks ago he hasn't played anything other than records on his system! That is even though he noticed the highs were a bit reticent on the LP12, which I fixed by showing him how to raise the overload on the EKDSM. I think that about says it all, don't you?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Very convincing Thomas!

“Just Listen”. :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

tokenbrit wrote:
Spannko wrote:
Charlie1 wrote: Yep, it has faint wording on it indicating the direction.
The direction is indicated by the Linn logo which is rotated by 90 degrees and then makes a sort of an arrow. From memory, this could be against the text, but I’m not really sure - it’s been a long time!
Yes, with the 'arrow'; "against the text" - same as the interconnects
A word of warning on using the Linn logo. In the past it was not consistent which way they printed the logo although they eventually standardized it. So the sure way to tell the direction is to look at the text. It starts with the logo and ends with the word CABLE. The easy way to remember the direction is the E on CABLE goes toward the Electronics and the logo, which is round like a speaker driver, should go to the speaker. Simple.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for sharing those very interesting clips, Thomas!

I find it painful to think of all the expensive and underperforming LP12's out there, that nobody's taking care of. It's nothing but a shame.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

lejonklou wrote:
I'm leaning towards the first.

Second is different and very close.

Third I don't like at all.

I agree - both 1 and 2 are good and 3 is not.

I also would choose 1 but had to keep going back to 2 to confirm this.


I have seen huge improvements in the musicality of my LP12 with upgrades and, think the set up of the deck contributes as much, if not more than the upgrade itself.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Yes, these clips are the best evidence yet. I listened again to 3 and can hear the sea sick / weirdness in the guitar in particular.

I was expecting to hear reports of Linn having increased plinth height or quietly done 'something' to fix this but months have past now and still nothing :( Surely they do not want a max'd out LP12 (or any spec) to sound 'wrong' having put all that work into development etc.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

I've have another confession to make. The NAC A5 was also the wrong way around. It would only fit one way cos of the Naim connectors. However, the person I bought them from finally confirmed yesterday the direction, so I removed the connectors and was able to fit that end to my speakers.

I've left K400 out of this for now until I can get a 5m length:
NAC A5 (5m): https://www.dropbox.com/s/8y0vlun5flpml ... 6.MOV?dl=0
K20 (5m): https://www.dropbox.com/s/kq35nj2bnn6gz ... 4.MOV?dl=0
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

Now they’re much harder to separate!

On first listen I preferred the Naim but was conscious that I was being impressed by the more open sound. When things are close like this (musically) I like to pretend I’m one of the musicians and see how easy it is to play along. When doing this, the Linn was the easiest to play along with - very natural actually, whereas the Naim made it difficult to settle into the rhythm.

I’d probably want to try a few different tracks just to be sure though.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

Charlie1 wrote:I've have another confession to make. The NAC A5 was also the wrong way around. It would only fit one way cos of the Naim connectors. However, the person I bought them from finally confirmed yesterday the direction, so I removed the connectors and was able to fit that end to my speakers.

I've left K400 out of this for now until I can get a 5m length:
NAC A5 (5m): https://www.dropbox.com/s/8y0vlun5flpml ... 6.MOV?dl=0
K20 (5m): https://www.dropbox.com/s/kq35nj2bnn6gz ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Much prefer K20.

Not familiar with this music and thought NAC was making a reasonable go of it - then I listened with K20s
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote:I’d probably want to try a few different tracks just to be sure though.
Here's one more:
NAC A5: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jfd1oo50u6dd9 ... 7.MOV?dl=0
K20: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mirknpirkd2og ... 8.MOV?dl=0

Sorry, they are not very good recordings. I think this close, the phone needs to be slightly off to one side.

I wasn't sure either at first, but listened to the clips afterwards and agree with tokenbrit.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

No contest for me.

I’ll have the K20s every time. This time I have an even stronger preference.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

u252agz wrote:No contest for me.

I’ll have the K20s every time. This time I have an even stronger preference.
I agree.

You are one lucky man Charlie1. When I listen to your clips I expect there are some that might think “nothing special” about them.
I listen and immediately get seduced by the music even through these clips. That is something!
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

Agreed

Charlie 1’s system has its mojo back with these K20s

I was getting concerned with the first Naim cables.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

Glad you're enjoying the K20. Interested to hear clips when you get up and running in stereo.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

Yep. The K20 works really well. I’m surprised, cos I’ve always preferred the K400, but the Nait 1/K20 makes a great combo.
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