Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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u252agz
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by u252agz »

beck wrote:Now, all you expert Tune Demmers :-), it is time for the final showdown between my three pairs of Linn interconnects placed between my Linto and my LK100. One pair of silvers and two pairs of blacks.

I will let a new voice in my life (Leon Russell) be the one to guide you. I love his voice!

Let the best interconnect win!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5j1v89c3gn6j7 ... 2.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1dz5fvm1m270a ... 4.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mtrkocsqciybf ... 5.MOV?dl=0

Beck

I prefer the second one 4 MOV, then 2 MOV.

Found the clip quite challenging.

Interesting to see which interconnect is which.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

Yes, this one is quite hard because I changed the mic position and because the sound from my system has changed since last time. I have changed the order of my power plugs. Lingo, Linto, LK100 is the order now.
The choice of record also has something to do with it.
Last edited by beck on 2016-03-28 22:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:Now, all you expert Tune Demmers :-), it is time for the final showdown between my three pairs of Linn interconnects placed between my Linto and my LK100. One pair of silvers and two pairs of blacks.

I will let a new voice in my life (Leon Russell) be the one to guide you. I love his voice!

Let the best interconnect win!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5j1v89c3gn6j7 ... 2.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1dz5fvm1m270a ... 4.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mtrkocsqciybf ... 5.MOV?dl=0
I found that really difficult. Could be the piece of music itself or just me. I do like that album. I couldn't draw any firm conclusion and my opinion shifted so I feel it was overall inconclusive. My first impression was a preference for 1172, then 1174, then 1175.

EDIT: Just seen the last two posts. Glad it's not just me struggling this time :)
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 »

Music Lover wrote:
Charlie1 wrote: Two tracks, a rock track to entice Music Lover to play and then a Fredrik favourite.
Much appreciated sir :)

Unfortunately I have built a separate LAN for the DS, avoiding kids and hackers messing with my NAS and DS, so it's not easy for me to test music on-line.
Thanks for the post ML. It was Whole Lotta Rosie.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

I am challenged by a slight ecco in my room that disturbs the new recordings! This is what you are up against! I have three more clips with the same problem but I will put them on in the same order of interconnects being used. Have a listen.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p8n3zbl066esw ... 9.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tbiib89ilbr3j ... 1.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4lvjpwvspbz9l ... 0.MOV?dl=0

They are placed in the same order from top to bottom with the same set of interconnects. Sorry about the ecco. It does make this exercise quite tricky.

After this is over I will check the orientation of my power plugs again. The problem with the sound could be a plug turned around.
Last edited by beck on 2016-03-28 22:25, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Music Lover »

Charlie1 wrote:
Music Lover wrote:
Charlie1 wrote: Two tracks, a rock track to entice Music Lover to play and then a Fredrik favourite.
Much appreciated sir :)

Unfortunately I have built a separate LAN for the DS, avoiding kids and hackers messing with my NAS and DS, so it's not easy for me to test music on-line.
Thanks for the post ML. It was Whole Lotta Rosie.
One if the classics from my favourite band!
I feel tempted connecting the DS-network to the main router... Just need to invest in a new wireless router.
A Deep Purple tune and we have a home run :)
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by u252agz »

beck wrote:I am challenged by a slight ecco in my room that disturbs the new recordings! This is what you are up against! I have three more clips with the same problem but I will put them on in the same order of interconnects being used. Have a listen.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p8n3zbl066esw ... 9.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tbiib89ilbr3j ... 1.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4lvjpwvspbz9l ... 0.MOV?dl=0

.
Again I prefer the second one (1.MOV) followed by the first ( 9.MOV)

I found This clip easier than the last one


Why do I not get on with the third one in both of your demos?

Please do let us know which interconnect this is.



I find the whole issue of interconnects ( I mean Linn ones ) intriguing and frustrating at the same time.

I accept blacks will be different from silvers but why is their so much difference between sets of blacks or between sets of silvers.

It seems to be quite a lot of difference at times.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Ok, as I did this mainly for you I will give you and charlie1 and the rest out there the answer:

Linn silvers

Linn Blacks (my favorite)

Linn Blacks (second pair)

I will not drag you through anymore of these exercices but it has given me a lot of insight into my own system.

Thank you to all!

My silvers are slightly off in the tone relation department but have a pleasing sound. My preferred blacks are tone relation champions of the three but a wee bit stiff when it comes to musical timing. My second pair of blacks are off in the tone department but loose and free when it comes to musical timing.

All this is magnified by not using a preamp because I only need one pair of interconnects (not two).
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

I do prefer the second one ( your favourite blacks) but your first ones ( silvers ) are not far behind, in both clips.

I did not get on with your less preferred blacks which are quite far behind the others - was it this set I did not like in your original clip of two tracks?

In my system- between the preamp and poweramp, some 9 metre Blacks are very good but the standard Linn silvers are much better.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

From before all this started my preferred blacks have been the same. It has not changed. But when you picked my second pair of blacks in the demo between the two it got me thinking.
You were right about them being more loose and free (musical timing) but if you go back and concentrate on tone relations they are not as good as my preferred blacks. It also might show that when the music is more loose you tend to prefer the interconnects with the same quality. Small differences but important to me as I only need the one pair.
I am in no doubt that silvers in your situation will be the best choice (and more expensive) and I suspect that my preferred blacks are the exception from the rule.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

This is a clearer test for me too. I still find the Silvers slightly easier to follow but your favourite pair of Blacks definitely has something going for it as well. To my ears, the Silvers seems to meld (or mash) the instruments together more and it sounds a bit flat by comparison, if that makes sense. The good Blacks sounded more lifelike than the Silvers to me. And the poorer blacks struck me as a bit boring compared to the other two.

Have you tried getting hold of the older Silvers (without slits) or is that what you already own? I would expect Silvers to clearly outperform Blacks in all respects so do wonder if it's worth trying another pair especially as you only need one pair.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Your description of the silvers and my preferred blacks makes perfect sense to me and I should know! :-)

My silvers are the old model but yes, I have grown a hunger for trying out more interconnects as they really do make a difference.
As you say I only need one fantastic pair to make my system even better but I bet you it is going to be hard to find such a pair.

You are right about these clips only showing us the bones and the heart of the music. ;-) We cannot hear the skin and the makeup. But the bones and heart are very important fundamentals when trying to enjoy the music!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Music at Home »

I'm finding this really interesting. I've made a test recording of my system but it sounds really bad compared to the clips here. It sounds small, distant and echoey, even though the sound in the room is at normal listening volume. Any tips, does the app have much impact on the quality?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Are you using the normal video function on your ipad/iphone? Or using something else or a different device?

Check where the mic is placed so that you do not cover it up by mistake when recording. My system does play quite loud when I record a clip.
Last edited by beck on 2016-03-29 22:07, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Good to see you back Music at Home.

I've had bass trouble with some tracks. It gets distorted in a very strange way and sounds absolutely nothing like it does in the room. Perhaps try a more accoustic track.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Music at Home »

Should have mentioned, using an iPAD, 3rd generation, in-built mic, and a simple video recorder app downloaded just to try it this out. Cost me a whole 79p! Probably worth what I paid for it. Just to try it out initially, I used the same Wings track, 'Let 'Em In'. My recording pales by comparison. Will persevere later in the week.

Good to be back. I do dip in now and again, this thread caught my interest. Could be a really useful tool to help evaluate tweaks and potential future upgrades. If I can it working.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Just use the camera app that is on your ipad from the beginning! It has a video recorder too. It works!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Mine is an iPhone 4S. Same as Beck, I just select the 'Camera' app that came with the phone. I then change it from PHOTO to VIDEO.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

I have been using the video recording on iPhone. That has for some reason resulted in the best sound quality.

My recordings have not been very enjoyable to listen to, but then again that is not their purpose. Their purpose is to let the listeners decide with certainty which one of two options performs best. They need to be good enough for that.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote:This is a clearer test for me too. I still find the Silvers slightly easier to follow ...............To my ears, the Silvers seems to meld (or mash) the instruments together more and it sounds a bit flat by comparison, if that makes sense. The good Blacks sounded more lifelike than the Silvers to me.
By accident we two have stumbled upon what I find to be one of the most interesting subjects in recorded sound reproduction discussions and your statement above about the silvers and blacks hits it on the nail!
When music is reproduced almost "in tune" each instrument still stands clear of each other (my silvers) When it is reproduced "in tune" notes gather together reinforcing each other pushing the sound more forcefully away from the speakers into the room (my preferred blacks) like when music is played live.
IMHO

But this discussion belongs elsewhere! Let's get back to some clips. How are you getting along Music at Home?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote: By accident we two have stumbled upon what I find to be one of the most interesting subjects in recorded sound reproduction discussions and your statement above about the silvers and blacks hits it on the nail!
When music is reproduced almost "in tune" each instrument still stands clear of each other (my silvers) When it is reproduced "in tune" notes gather together reinforcing each other pushing the sound more forcefully away from the speakers into the room (my preferred blacks) like when music is played live.
IMHO
The thing is that on balance I reckon I'd go with the Silvers based on that last test. I found them more in tune albeit less lifelike.

I wonder what yourself and other members make of the following. The Archidee table sounds much better. It's definitely cleaner sounding with less fuzz/hash. And it does seem easier to follow the start of 'Darklands' and 'Lyin Eyes' with more clearly defined notes but I think they also miss something. Listen to the last 20 sec of 'Over the Hills and Far Away' and I think the Isoblue rack better conveys the excitement and that song. It was always a difficult decision for me.

Lyin' Eyes (Isoblue): https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3fa2ctllsy24 ... k.MOV?dl=0
Lyin' Eyes (Archidee): https://www.dropbox.com/s/4fz24g1nm57bx ... e.MOV?dl=0

Darklands (Isoblue): https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2jcp9tx0f2cq ... k.MOV?dl=0
Darklands (Archidee): https://www.dropbox.com/s/o38fmj5pdicxy ... e.MOV?dl=0

Over the Hills (Isoblue): https://www.dropbox.com/s/im0ivoinszy2g ... k.MOV?dl=0
Over the Hills (Archidee): https://www.dropbox.com/s/pu9mleuabj2a1 ... e.MOV?dl=0

The Timpán Reel (Isoblue): https://www.dropbox.com/s/z1x1jmhjf4zzc ... k.MOV?dl=0
The Timpán Reel (Archidee): https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ijevstgydjxs ... e.MOV?dl=0
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Music at Home »

beck wrote:Just use the camera app that is on your ipad from the beginning! It has a video recorder too. It works!
Thanks, I didn't realise that the camera app had a built in video recorder. In my defence, :-) I don't normally use an iPAD, or iPhone, it's my wife's, she uses it for e-mail and the kindle app.

I think I'm getting somewhere now. I've just recorded a couple of 35 second clips and they are about 45MB each, compared to a 1m35s clip recorded using the app I downloaded which was about 8MB. Clearly a huge difference in quality. However, next problem I need to overcome is that I have a super slow broadband connection and it looks like it will take about 6 or 7 hours to upload these two files, so clearly not very practical.

Not defeated though. I have a microphone that I plug into an external sound-card for A-D conversion which then connects to my laptop via USB, that I use occasionally with REW (Room Equalisation Wizard). I could make reasonably high quality, lossless, audio only recordings, which I can keep and use for my own evaluation purposes, but also use the lossless file to create a high bit-rate mp3 version for uploading. I reckon this would still be higher quality than the audio embedded in a video clip but much smaller file sizes to upload.

That's something I'll look at investigating tomorrow night.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

Sorry I've been busy and haven't kept up with all your clips.

I have two thoughts:

1. Beck, you have to consider the possibility that your silvers are broken - and you should get a better pair. This is not the first time it happens, I've heard several old pairs that just aren't musical at all. But the very best ones are also old, so it's a minefield buying them second hand. Especially since everyone is selling off the pairs they're not happy with.
When listening to your clips, several people have commented on the fact that the differences between your silvers and best blacks are very atypical.

2. In a brief listen to your latest clips, Charlie, I prefer Archidee. But I suspect that the position of your Isoblue, close to the wall, might be superior. To make a "fair" comparison, position them at the same spot when comparing. Proximity to the wall makes quite a difference and it can be tuned just like a loudspeaker.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

To Charlie1: Wow, you have been buisy! This is where I would say that my kind of "Tune Dem" or whatever we shall call it is to no use!

The differences are more of a "hifi" nature as in "a little clearer or emphasis on different areas of the sound spectrum" and so on!

I cannot help you in a meaningful way as I hear no real differences in the way the "chords" of the music are being delivered. That is not to say that I don't hear differences!

You should go with you own gut feeling!

To Lejonklou: Yes, I do agree with your comments. I am just glad that I do have a pair of interconnects I do get along with.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:In a brief listen to your latest clips, Charlie, I prefer Archidee. But I suspect that the position of your Isoblue, close to the wall, might be superior. To make a "fair" comparison, position them at the same spot when comparing. Proximity to the wall makes quite a difference and it can be tuned just like a loudspeaker.
Thanks Fredrik. The first time I compared I did move the Isoblue along to the right to make room for the Archidee alongside. I'll leave the LP12 on the Archidee a while longer and see if it's worth another fairer test.

Moving the entire rack forwards and backwards is a real pain since it's so heavy but thanks for the tip. I might explore that but it's a real pain. Is the benefit quite small?
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2016-03-30 22:36, edited 2 times in total.
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