Playground for practical listening exercises

[beck]

If tokenbrit is right this is Uphorik versus Slipsik 6 and then I can only say well done Lejonklou! But let us hear it from ThomasOK first!

If the above is true I will consider downgrading my pickup to Adikt the next time I have to replace my Klyde, sell my Linto and get a Slipsik. But I am getting ahead of myself! Have to wait for the answer!

[Charlie1]

They sound a bit too different to me. I wonder if the mic is slightly covered during the first recording because it sounds a bit muffled. It adds a slightly dreamlike quality especially combined with the blurred screen. I think the second one probably is easier to follow but would like to hear them more evenly recorded.

[lejonklou]

You have to tell us, Thomas!

[Efraim roots]

Wow, this is exiting. I used to think uphorik was the best thing since sliced bread (as they say) and "impossible" to beat.

[lejonklou]

I think it's something else we were comparing. But I don't know what.

By the way, did you know that sliced bread was initially a failure when it was first introduced in 1928?

[beck]

Ha, ha! No I did not. But then again many great inventions started as a failure! :-)

[ThomasOK]

Hi all. Sorry it has taken me a while to get back but I've been out of town for the weekend hopefully signing up a new Lejonklou dealer. Then I got sick so I'm home healing up today.

The comparison is indeed the Uphorik vs. the Slipsik 6. When I did these comparisons in the past with the 5.1 I felt it was close but the Uphorik was a bit more tuneful. You didn't feel disappointed going back to the 5.1 as it was very musical but the Uphorik was just a bit better.

Now that position has reversed with the Slipsik 6 easily more tuneful and enjoyable than the Uphorik as you all heard. Certainly they are both good but the Slipsik 6 really brings you into the music more. Obviously congratulations are in order to Fredrik for another groundbreaking product.

I was quite careful to hold the iPhone exactly the same way for both recordings so the mic was not partly covered up. I have found that sometimes files played directly from Dropbox can sound quite different. Usually downloading the files first works better. It is always hard to comment on what someone heard without hearing it in their environment but I will say that the instruments are more distinct and present on the Slipsik 6 than they are on the Uphorik in person.

Fredrik, as to the timing, I tried to get them the same but having to navigate around the dog caused a little delay on the Slipsik 6 recording. However it is only a couple of seconds and they have made this clever device called a slider on the bottom of the video which will let you start the other video a few seconds in! ;-)

Glad you all enjoyed the recordings. Made using an LP12 with refinished Linn Rosewood plinth, Lingo 2, Kore, Ekos 2 and Adikt. Both units were fully warmed up, as was the LP12, and each was plugged into the same outlet when playing.

[lejonklou]

The comparison is indeed the Uphorik vs. the Slipsik 6

I don't know what to say now.

I haven't listened to Uphorik since I compared it with Slipsik 5.1 a couple of years ago. Uphorik was better.

[beck]

Well, congratulation is the first word that comes to my mind!:-). This is great news for those who want to cut running costs. A good MM-pickup (Adikt) can lower the costs a great deal when being used to using expensive MC-pickups.

[u252agz]

Considering the phono stage is one of the last things that one is supposed to upgrade with a turntable, there was quite a difference between the two recordings:

Even though the first one was nice and musical.

As I have mentioned before, the ability to do the phono stage upgrade without the help and expertise of an LP 12 specialist makes this upgrade quite tempting, even on a majik LP12.

[ThomasOK]

The comparison is indeed the Uphorik vs. the Slipsik 6

I don't know what to say now.

I haven't listened to Uphorik since I compared it with Slipsik 5.1 a couple of years ago. Uphorik was better.

The Uphorik was better. But it's not anymore. I listened to a number of pieces of music on both units, using a newer Linn power cable on the Uphorik (which did outperform a Lejonklou cable on it), and the Slipsik 6 consistently made the music more enjoyable while it also made all the instruments and how the musicians played them more accessible.

In listening to these two clips on a couple of setups I felt they were a good representation of the differences I heard at home.

[beck]

I have a small problem. It is clear to me that the Slipsik 6 was upset by sharing a shelf with the Uphorik in the first pair of clips (Suzanne Vega)from ThomasOK so if I shall use it I have to place the Slipsik on a shelf all by itself not leaving room for my Lingo. Always new problems to be solved! :-)

[Charlie1]

Here's some clips with and without the Ikea chopping board that has been recommended by some Linn forum members. The middle clip includes home made feet under the board. I'm still toying with speaker positioning after upgrading to KK1 but I'm getting there. Haven't ruled out Sagatun Monos longer term but one step at a time.

No board: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lvxd5p1hm4xuf ... d.MOV?dl=0
Board with feet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n4tsv3y7on8qu ... t.MOV?dl=0
Board only: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsnpo4oepu46h ... y.MOV?dl=0

[Charlie1]

I was quite careful to hold the iPhone exactly the same way for both recordings so the mic was not partly covered up. I have found that sometimes files played directly from Dropbox can sound quite different. Usually downloading the files first works better. It is always hard to comment on what someone heard without hearing it in their environment but I will say that the instruments are more distinct and present on the Slipsik 6 than they are on the Uphorik in person.

I did download them. Actually just before your last post I shut my eyes and compared and they sounded closer than I had thought. I know it's odd but it's as if the blurred view in the first video added to the effect of them sounding different. Sight over sound :)

[ThomasOK]

I didn't listen to them in the order listed so I was at first surprised that the clip of the board with feet wasn't too bad. This is because I didn't like the board without feet at all. It was pretty dead sounding and really didn't get me into the music. There board with feet was much better but still not as good as no board. With the board and feet it was a bit more Hi-Fi and detailed sounding but I found that I couldn't tell what the various instruments were doing as well - they didn't seem to be playing together. For example when the sax came in it somewhat dominated and the other instruments became harder to follow. I think this is what beck would call sounding like a more complete musical piece - all the instruments playing together. They sounded the most that way to me without the board.

[ThomasOK]

I was quite careful to hold the iPhone exactly the same way for both recordings so the mic was not partly covered up. I have found that sometimes files played directly from Dropbox can sound quite different. Usually downloading the files first works better. It is always hard to comment on what someone heard without hearing it in their environment but I will say that the instruments are more distinct and present on the Slipsik 6 than they are on the Uphorik in person.

I did download them. Actually just before your last post I shut my eyes and compared and they sounded closer than I had thought. I know it's odd but it's as if the blurred view in the first video added to the effect of them sounding different. Sight over sound :)

It is certainly possible for the visuals to have an effect.

[anthony]

Well done Fredrik!

[tokenbrit]

.. I didn't like the board without feet at all. It was pretty dead sounding and really didn't get me into the music. There board with feet was much better but still not as good as no board...

Agree - I felt like they were posted in order of decreasing musicality from no board to board only. I definitely preferred no board.
I hope you kept the IKEA receipt, charlie1, so that you can get your £2 back ;)

[ThomasOK]

I have a small problem. It is clear to me that the Slipsik 6 was upset by sharing a shelf with the Uphorik in the first pair of clips (Suzanne Vega)from ThomasOK so if I shall use it I have to place the Slipsik on a shelf all by itself not leaving room for my Lingo. Always new problems to be solved! :-)

Very perceptive. Yes the Suzanne Vega clip was also Uphorik vs. Slipsik 6 and I believe you are right that them both being on the same shelf caused a problem - but only some of the problem. I was trying to be candid about the clips by having both up there but there was indeed a bigger musical difference when only one was on the shelf although both were still plugged into the same duplex outlet of a power strip (and switched before playing as I noted). Although I didn't think of it at the time it also probably wasn't helped by the fact that the power supply for the Uphorik is on the right side of the case - the point closest to the Slipsik 6 in those clips. The effect could differ with the Lingo since it has a linear power supply and could likely be placed differently but you will find out when you try it out.

But there was more going on than that. When I was making the clips I had already listened to several pieces of music, including the Suzanne Vega one, and I could definitely hear that the Slipsik 6 was more musical. I also clearly heard that it was more tuneful as I was making the clips. So I feel that the majority of the problem came down to differences in the way I was holding the iPhone and possibly some losses from Dropbox.

Regardless, the musical differences between the two were easily more obvious when each had the ideal situation of having the shelf to itself. So the newer set of clips does a good job of accurately portraying what I heard at home when I listened.

This also brings up an interesting finding I have made in listening to all these clips and I wanted to see if anyone else has noticed this. I find that it is actually easier to hear the musical differences, the true tunefulness of the clips, on the speakers in my iMac in the store than it is through a quality Hi-Fi system. (I also find this with my PowerMac at home.) The two quality systems I am referring to are my own system at home with the JBLs in residence and a system at the store with a KDS/1, Sagatun(s), Tundra 1.2 and Majik Isobariks (I have used both Sagatun 1.1 stereo and Mono 1.1s at different times). What I find is that with a big Hi-Fi system that is relatively full range, the sound quality has so many problems, particularly in the bass, that it makes it more difficult to listen clearly to the tune. Sometimes the bass is just so bad it is hard to focus on anything else.

I have an interesting theory on this. It has long been my belief, one that I have often repeated to customers, that the bass nodes in a listening room are not anywhere near as big a problem in most cases as people like Linn and others make them out to be. Why is this? Because of the wonderful brain that is connected up to our ears as it is in the mind that hearing actually happens. One of the very interesting and fun things about the brain/ear is that it automatically compensates for its surroundings. You can easily demonstrate this to yourself. If you are having a conversation with someone and you walk from a small room to a bigger one and then outside they will sound the same to you despite the wildly different acoustics. But if you take your iPhone or similar device and record that conversation and play it back later the sound is completely different as you move from one acoustic to another. Your mind has instantly noted the acoustic differences as you were conversing and equalized your brain so you would hear the same voice as you moved about! But without those external cues when you play the recording the differences are all too audible.

My belief is that now that you are listening to one of our recorded clips in a different room all the bass inconsistencies in the original room are laid bare as your mind can't compensate for them. It even happens in the same room, as you are now doubling up the bass resonances. If this is the case then listening to the computer speakers, with their limited bass capabilities, is likely to filter out those big bass differences that I find problematic. Has anybody else noticed anything similar?

By the way I also find it significantly easier to hear the musical differences on the computer speakers than I do over the tiny speaker in an iPhone. I put this down to the built in iPhone sound system being too low in resolution to show up the differences as well as the iMac speakers or the speakers attached to my Powermac at home.

[ThomasOK]

.. I didn't like the board without feet at all. It was pretty dead sounding and really didn't get me into the music. There board with feet was much better but still not as good as no board...

Agree - I felt like they were posted in order of decreasing musicality from no board to board only. I definitely preferred no board.
I hope you kept the IKEA receipt, charlie1, so that you can get your £2 back ;)

Hey, it still makes a good cutting board. :-)

[Charlie1]

.. I didn't like the board without feet at all. It was pretty dead sounding and really didn't get me into the music. There board with feet was much better but still not as good as no board...

Agree - I felt like they were posted in order of decreasing musicality from no board to board only. I definitely preferred no board.
I hope you kept the IKEA receipt, charlie1, so that you can get your £2 back ;)

Hey, it still makes a good cutting board. :-)

Actually, it's been an excellent chopping board for a few months already. I originally bought it to try with the LP12 but that was a really bad combo. Thanks for the feedback everyone!

[Charlie1]

For example when the sax came in it somewhat dominated and the other instruments became harder to follow. I think this is what beck would call sounding like a more complete musical piece - all the instruments playing together. They sounded the most that way to me without the board.

Forgot to say, I found this really useful. I'd not noticed it until you said but it was clear afterwards.

[lejonklou]

This also brings up an interesting finding I have made in listening to all these clips and I wanted to see if anyone else has noticed this. I find that it is actually easier to hear the musical differences, the true tunefulness of the clips, on the speakers in my iMac in the store than it is through a quality Hi-Fi system. (I also find this with my PowerMac at home.) The two quality systems I am referring to are my own system at home with the JBLs in residence and a system at the store with a KDS/1, Sagatun(s), Tundra 1.2 and Majik Isobariks (I have used both Sagatun 1.1 stereo and Mono 1.1s at different times). What I find is that with a big Hi-Fi system that is relatively full range, the sound quality has so many problems, particularly in the bass, that it makes it more difficult to listen clearly to the tune. Sometimes the bass is just so bad it is hard to focus on anything else.

I have an interesting theory on this. It has long been my belief, one that I have often repeated to customers, that the bass nodes in a listening room are not anywhere near as big a problem in most cases as people like Linn and others make them out to be. Why is this? Because of the wonderful brain that is connected up to our ears as it is in the mind that hearing actually happens. One of the very interesting and fun things about the brain/ear is that it automatically compensates for its surroundings. You can easily demonstrate this to yourself. If you are having a conversation with someone and you walk from a small room to a bigger one and then outside they will sound the same to you despite the wildly different acoustics. But if you take your iPhone or similar device and record that conversation and play it back later the sound is completely different as you move from one acoustic to another. Your mind has instantly noted the acoustic differences as you were conversing and equalized your brain so you would hear the same voice as you moved about! But without those external cues when you play the recording the differences are all too audible.

My belief is that now that you are listening to one of our recorded clips in a different room all the bass inconsistencies in the original room are laid bare as your mind can't compensate for them. It even happens in the same room, as you are now doubling up the bass resonances. If this is the case then listening to the computer speakers, with their limited bass capabilities, is likely to filter out those big bass differences that I find problematic. Has anybody else noticed anything similar?

By the way I also find it significantly easier to hear the musical differences on the computer speakers than I do over the tiny speaker in an iPhone. I put this down to the built in iPhone sound system being too low in resolution to show up the differences as well as the iMac speakers or the speakers attached to my Powermac at home.

Excellent post, Thomas!

And I agree with all of it.

In-room recordings are terrible on the HiFi. I find it easiest to judge them with my iPhone 6, Apple earpods and a pair of Peltor Optime III hearing protectors that completely cover the ears (and which I normally use when drilling, sawing and such). As I have probably mentioned before, the quality of the bass often shines through even when there is very little bass to be heard in the recording. It's as if a mere hint of its presence is enough.

[ThomasOK]

I forgot about a reply to the comment from beck about the "Very nice piece of music indeed!" Yes, it is quite a fine piece as is the whole album. You can hear the complete 2 LP set for yourself here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrSE2J1EQiI

The album is by one of my all time favorite artists, Egberto Gismonti, a Brazilian of exceptional talent. I first heard him with percussionist Nana Vasconcelos (a fellow Brazilian who sadly passed away this year) on their duet album for ECM "Danca Das Cabecas" (Dance of Heads). Nana was catapulted to fame with this album and has worked with a ton of people. Not just more jazz musician than you can shake a stick at, but also the likes of B.B. King, The Talking Heads, Paul Simon and Ginger Baker having won Down Beat Critics Poll "Best Percussionist of the Year" 7 years running and 8 Grammys. Here is a the first side of that album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoEFHx0Zxjk

But back to Egberto Gismonti, when I heard Danca I was amazed at what a guitarist he was. (And also by the amazing percussionist Nana was.) Then I flipped it to side two and was blown away that he was a talented pianist as well. When I got the next album from him "Solo" I was even more in awe after hearing the piano - especially of "And Zero" one of the more sublime and moving pieces of music I have heard. Then again the fact that there were guitar pieces on this solo album where you would swear there are three guitarists playing, yet the liner notes clearly state that there are no guitar overdubs, didn't hurt my sense of wonder either. Here is that album (And Zero is the second track):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75-P17dTrmA

Dana was the first Gismonti album on the ECM label which really had some fine engineering until they switched to digital recording in the early 80s. But these three are all late 70s analog recordings which I heartily recommend. There are many more form later years, several of which I have not heard yet. But these three, and also Sol Do Meio Dia, are Gismonti (and in several cases others) in wonderful form.

By the way, I have seen him live, including once with Nana playing the first part of Danca, and it was always quite amazing. He tends to play an eight string guitar, and sometimes a "Super" 8 string (an 8 string with four strings doubled so a different kind of a twelve string) giving him quite a range. He has large hands that can wrap around that wide fretboard and plays in a way that allows him to make three sounds at the same time. Quite a trip to watch. I hope you enjoy these and can find some original vinyl of them, if desired.

[u252agz]

I agree it is easier to ignore the sounds ( not just bass) and listen to the music with these clips.

But what really makes it easy for me is the speed of the comparisions - 5 to 10 secs each with just a few seconds in between clips.

In real life systems we have all the nice sounds ( especially in a good system) and a much longer gap between changes.

My musical memory is not good enough in real life comparisions- especially if both recordings are essentially tuneful with not that much between them, and one is trying to choose the more musical one.