Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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beck
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

Well, as I always want to be a little different :-) I just used the first couple of seconds of each clip to form my opinion!
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:Great song, what is it? The intro was annoying when comparing, though. I had to skip the first 15 seconds every time, which was difficult on the phone. I much prefer to compare with songs that start at once.
Jack Savoretti. Both my wife and I really like him. 'Written in Scars' is a good album and is just a single LP which I always prefer. However, only the new edition includes his 'Catapult' single which is a wonderful song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYZOnIEUdYU
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

By the way, I love the "Dad" call for you in your first clip (Laa Laa). The same thing happend to me in one of my clips! :-)
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 »

Tinky Winky is Radikal/Urika first - LP12 had been spinning for about 15 minutes.
Po is Kikkin first - LP12 started up for about 30secs.
Laa Laa is Radikal/Urika first - LP12 started up for about 30secs.

I didn't clean the Akiva between plays so don't know why switching the Radikal, Kikkin and 2200 off/on again was better than it running for 15 mins. I did a similar test earlier that morning. Therefore it's not the first time I disconnected the equipment today so I can't imagine any benefit in cleaning the plug socket contacts. And I definitely haven't mixed up the files. Strange. I suppose it's possible I nudged a mains cable away from touching an IC but they should all be hanging away from one another. Can anyone think of a more likely explanation?
beck wrote:By the way, I love the "Dad" call for you in your first clip (Laa Laa). The same thing happend to me in one of my clips! :-)
I know and then she stood next to me trying to put me off :)
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2016-03-27 16:30, edited 1 time in total.
beck
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

And you are sure that orientation of the power plugs was the same each time? This maybe call for a second test!
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Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:And you are sure that orientation of the power plugs was the same each time? This maybe call for a second test!
UK plugs only go one way around so must be something else.

Maybe a retest of just this is worth doing without touching any plugs - i.e. Radikal at startup, Radikal 20mins later. Then another test unplugging them but not swapping the order or anything.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

Sounds like a good idea!
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by lejonklou »

Interesting results, Charlie!

I don't have any particular explanation other than the best thing would be if everything is left running for 15 min after each change. The reason is that I find that my Radikal sounds worse for a while after I switch in off and back on. Another advantage with using recorded clips is that this wait for the system to get back to optimal performance can be eliminated.

As mentioned in Olskool's thread, I find that preamp first is usually best. But not always. Your clips seem to indicate that in your system, it's not optimal. But then you just said you'd changed your mind?

BTW, one thing that could affect the outcome is if one of the positions in your distribution block sounds worse than the others. I try to check this on blocks, by simply comparing all positions using one component and the rest of the system being powered by another block. It can be done very quickly; just play a few seconds with the unit powered by position one, move to position two and play again, etc.

If the distribution block under test is fine - and they usually are - it should be difficult to tell the positions apart. Last time I did this, I remember that position three on that block sounded worse than the others. Then I mark that block and try using it for non-audio stuff. Or give it away. I don't know the reason why the positions can sound different, but one likely reason is that the contact pressure differs.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:I don't have any particular explanation other than the best thing would be if everything is left running for 15 min after each change. The reason is that I find that my Radikal sounds worse for a while after I switch in off and back on. Another advantage with using recorded clips is that this wait for the system to get back to optimal performance can be eliminated.
OK, good advice.
lejonklou wrote:As mentioned in Olskool's thread, I find that preamp first is usually best. But not always. Your clips seem to indicate that in your system, it's not optimal. But then you just said you'd changed your mind?
Yes, this morning I listened and thought Kikkin first was better (using the clips) but later I listened again and preferred Radikal. I'm finding myself quite inconsistent with these clips, not just this test. I also prefer not to know what other people prefer cos I'm sure it influences even though I try not to let it. Maybe these clips are not a good idea for me. The rest of you seem to have more reliable success. It is all good learning experience though.
lejonklou wrote:BTW, one thing that could affect the outcome is if one of the positions in your distribution block sounds worse than the others. I try to check this on blocks, by simply comparing all positions using one component and the rest of the system being powered by another block. It can be done very quickly; just play a few seconds with the unit powered by position one, move to position two and play again, etc.
OK, thanks - not tried this, or even thought of it before.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

Well, I keep making "mistakes" all the time but this is a "playground" and we are here to learn. We do not have to agree on everything. Disagreement can lead to new understanding and I have learned a lot by hanging around.

About listening to the clips: u252agz has said some very useful things about not listening too long and I think that keeping focus away from detail trying to "fold" all the sound into one sound is the way to do it. Listen slightly "out of focus" to capture it all!
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

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beck wrote:Well, I keep making "mistakes" all the time but this is a "playground" and we are here to learn. We do not have to agree on everything. Disagreement can lead to new understanding and I have learned a lot by hanging around.
Yes I totally agree. Thanks for your comment. I also try to be as honest as possible. Kiddin' myself or other people will make it harder to reveal the truth.
beck wrote:About listening to the clips: u252agz has said some very useful things about not listening too long and I think that keeping focus away from detail trying to "fold" all the sound into one sound is the way to do it. Listen slightly "out of focus" to capture it all!
Yes, thank you u252agz (and Beck). It's quite a fast moving thread so sorry if I forget to express gratitude. I will try what you both suggest.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 »

I think everything is as it should be and Radikal running for 15-20 mins is better than a restart. Who knows what that was about before.

Radikal left running: https://www.dropbox.com/s/isicvqursbnq1 ... g.MOV?dl=0

Radikal restart: https://www.dropbox.com/s/eydnzbo44b8y6 ... t.MOV?dl=0

No green paper between plays. I powered off/on the box.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

Great, they both sound good to me! I would not be able to tell the one from the other! :-)
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by lejonklou »

Can't hear any difference between those two, Charlie.

At first I thought Restart was a tad better, but then I lost it and couldn't hear the difference anymore.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by u252agz »

Very small preference for the first one - left running , but had to compare twice.

Normally once is enough for me.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

Now, all you expert Tune Demmers :-), it is time for the final showdown between my three pairs of Linn interconnects placed between my Linto and my LK100. One pair of silvers and two pairs of blacks.

I will let a new voice in my life (Leon Russell) be the one to guide you. I love his voice!

Let the best interconnect win

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by donuk »

I may be ignorant, but I can never see the point of comparing needle drops over the Internet.
Surely by far the weakest link in this chain is the analog to digital conversion at the sender's end and the DAC on the receiver's computer.
It is a bit like my telephoning my local HiFi dealer and holding my telephone to the speaker so that he can hear how good my system sounds.
Just a thought
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by lejonklou »

It's not about absolute performance, Don. It's relative differences. A little better is alway a little better. One can reap the benefits later, enjoying the music in full in front of the system.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by John »

These "live" recordings I assume made with an iPhone mic really sound pretty bad. It makes more sense to take a line out from the preamp or phono stage and capture the sound that way, especially when comparing changes that lend themselves to doing so.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Music Lover »

Charlie1 wrote: Two tracks, a rock track to entice Music Lover to play and then a Fredrik favourite.
Much appreciated sir :)

Unfortunately I have built a separate LAN for the DS, avoiding kids and hackers messing with my NAS and DS, so it's not easy for me to test music on-line.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Music Lover »

fyi
My experience is that it's dead easy to detect changes using a crap mic.

And...when comparing cables, I advice to test ONE at the time. The best two going to serve as pair #1 in the system.
Yes, you could end up with two "red" IC's...
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

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John wrote:These "live" recordings I assume made with an iPhone mic really sound pretty bad. It makes more sense to take a line out from the preamp or phono stage and capture the sound that way, especially when comparing changes that lend themselves to doing so.
Tune Dem is about the "live" sound in your room that your system produces. Not about making the best digital file to be reproduced on a digital device.
Tune Dem is about how the "pieces" from the "puzzle" fit together. Not about how big or detailed it sounds.

Fooling around like this has made me a lot more aware of what my system does. I now understand why it is so important for children and adults to play to gain new knowledge.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by John »

beck wrote:
John wrote:These "live" recordings I assume made with an iPhone mic really sound pretty bad. It makes more sense to take a line out from the preamp or phono stage and capture the sound that way, especially when comparing changes that lend themselves to doing so.
Tune Dem is about the "live" sound in your room that your system produces. Not about making the best digital file to be reproduced on a digital device.
Tune Dem is about how the "pieces" from the "puzzle" fit together. Not about how big or detailed it sounds.

Fooling around like this has made me a lot more aware of what my system does. I now understand why it is so important for children and adults to play to gain new knowledge.
Tune dem is about raising the demonstration standards and creating the best possible sound for doing so. It's the reason for single speaker demonstration rooms, making sure the gear is on proper supports, etc...

The better the demonstration standards, the easier it is to hear musical differences. The worse the standards, the more things sound the same. Needledrops done right are great for evaluating differences that lend themselves for doing so. Especially for those changes that aren't easily reversed.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

I am seeking the best possible sound from what I have here with me at home. Not trying to find the best possible system in the world!
If the term Tune Dem is used here wrongly I do apologise. Then we are just optimising our systems with the help from others via the internet.
Is that not allowed?
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck »

What I have learned by fooling around with video clips here is worth a great deal to me. I now know that some people around here actually value the same things in music reproduction as I do.
I was not sure before.

Making a common ground for discussing music reproduction is important to understand what we are talking about. Words are so weak when it comes to explaning what we hear!

For those who like to play around to gain further understanding of this hobby just continue to do so. It is when we abandon the norm that we can break new ground to new knowledge.

We need to play to grow!
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