Playground for practical listening exercises

[lejonklou]

Cool.

Now I love to discover that I've been wrong - so many new doors can open - but those rugs have felt weird to me all along. Both in the clips and based on personal tests.

[beck]

Yes, I do have a tendency to rock the boat! :-) I my case it turned out to be a question of how my speaker cables are arranged. They must not touch my wooden floor. In my system this has an effect on the relation between the notes being played! It amazes me how fragile these relations are and makes me aware of how difficult It is not to disturb them on the way from the recording studio to the listener.

And here just for the fun of it a different way to use a preamp! Have a look.:-)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cx4bgqoqxks5r ... 3.MOV?dl=0 (recorded before the latest changes)

[Charlie1]

Glad you fixed your bugbear without using the rugs.

Your pre-amp without a pre-amp is working well :) Sounds really good too.

I've been checking the best distance to wall again today and a lot happier - it's definitely back in the zone. Also compared the normal 5mm toe in to no toe in but finding it harder to pick. I have a slight preference but don't trust it enough:

No toe-in: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l19ppy82cjzom ... n.MOV?dl=0
5mm toe-in: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uf4nfjio5aits ... n.MOV?dl=0

[beck]

I did not expect to prefer the one from the other as nothing as such is wrong but I do prefer the more intimate sound of the toed in speakers. Maybe because of the choice of music? Easy enough to hear the difference.

I forgot to say that I do not use toe-in with my Espeks.

[lejonklou]

No Toe in is better to my ears.

Toe in has a very specific effect; it smoothes out differences between bass notes and occasionally also seems to increase prescence and clarity. Whenever a speaker is really well positioned in a room, toe in rarely improves things. But in some cases it does. In case of a troublesome room or a less than perfect speaker position, the likelihood of toe in increasing performance rises. In my experience, the cases where toe in is beneficial are a minority.

Historically, it was interesting to note that in the first twenty or so years, Linn used toe in when it improved performance when positioning speakers with Tune Dem. In practice, it resulted in usually no toe in but occasionally some. Almost never a lot. Then followed a period when they always used a lot of toe in and often positioned the speakers too far apart to begin with. I felt this was completely wrong and the demos suffered accordingly. Then about a decade later, the radical toe in started to fade away. And now I hear that digital EQ is taking care of things, so optimal positioning is no longer as important. Which is nonsense, as even with really bad speaker positions, I still find that performance improves as I switch that digital EQ off.

Back to these clips, I find that listening to the almost whispered phrase "Like the Spanish city to me", when sung the second time, Toe in gives me a tired Mark Knopfler. No Toe in gives me a Mark Knopfler with emotion in the lowered voice. And the guitar follows him with attention.

[beck]

And now a more crude rendition of the same piece of music from my room. As this is a well know piece of music maybe for the fun of it we could call on as many as possible to record this piece. Rooms, systems, volume and so on are different but the music could be the same.
All in the spirit of sharing our passion for music and at the same time getting some hints at how different systems present this record.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ttay5zmivqdnr ... 6.MOV?dl=0

I would love to hear this music via the JBL speakers! So, ThomasOK get that camera rolling!:-)

[u252agz]

No toe-in: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l19ppy82cjzom ... n.MOV?dl=0
5mm toe-in: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uf4nfjio5aits ... n.MOV?dl=0

I prefer no toe in - and am surprised once again, that these things make so much difference.

[beck]

Lejonklou and u252agz are right and I am wrong. No toe-in is best.

[Charlie1]

All in the spirit of sharing our passion for music and at the same time getting some hints at how different systems present this record.

Yes, it would be good to hear.

We'll find that the recording device will play a big part too. Here's the same track taken on iPad Mini instead of the normal iPhone 4S (no toe-in):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/63hbh7wfyyfnv ... 9.MOV?dl=0

[beck]

Great recording Charlie1. They both sound good but this one is the best!:-)

[Charlie1]

Thanks Beck. Maybe I should use the ipad more.

I just think it highlights there is a big difference between these recording devices so we're not really hearing how other members' systems differ to our own recording of the same track. I suppose we get a flavour and a broad sense of how they 'might' sound though.

[beck]

If I had any reservations about Linns newer analog offerings before they are gone now. Just have to save up some money!:-)
I really do think that your clips can show outsiders what "tuneful" is all about.

[Charlie1]

Thanks Beck - that was nice to read.

[beck]

Thanks Beck - that was nice to read.

My pleasure!

I have got one long road ahead of me but I think I will start with speaker cables. Yellow pages here I come!

[ThomasOK]

And now you can all tell me why I do not like to go around bald headed but prefer rug under my equipment?!

The featured track is early digital and has always had a synth bass way out of tune in my system but listen what happens:

No rug: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lhjxgwxzb0xbs ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Rug : https://www.dropbox.com/s/r8j4kvpuffeg4 ... 3.MOV?dl=0

You definitely need to go bald! I didn't care for number 2 at all and really felt that the bass was substantially more out of tune on it. Everything else sounded somehow soft and mushy - the timing just was off. The first one was better, more in tune, more in time, I could actually bop to it a bit. It was good enough I almost like it. ;-)

After listening and then reading others comments I was confused as I thought I had liked the rug version better so I went back and checked and realized that I had downloaded and listened to them in reverse order. No surprise, the no rug is better.

[ThomasOK]

No toe-in: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l19ppy82cjzom ... n.MOV?dl=0
5mm toe-in: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uf4nfjio5aits ... n.MOV?dl=0

I prefer no toe in - and am surprised once again, that these things make so much difference.

Agreed, no toe in is best. I noticed it right away on the bass line in the beginning - it sounded a bit flat and had very little in the way of texture or discernible harmonics. Without toe in it was now a really good bass player playing a really good bass, a marked difference. I did also hear the greater intelligibility of the quieter voice as Fredrik noted and the better guitar playing.

In my experience most of the best Linn speakers like anywhere from 0 to .5" of toe in. More that that has never really tuned well.

[Charlie1]

I forgot to respond to you Fredrik.

Toe in has a very specific effect; it smoothes out differences between bass notes and occasionally also seems to increase prescence and clarity. Whenever a speaker is really well positioned in a room, toe in rarely improves things. But in some cases it does. In case of a troublesome room or a less than perfect speaker position, the likelihood of toe in increasing performance rises. In my experience, the cases where toe in is beneficial are a minority.

Historically, it was interesting to note that in the first twenty or so years, Linn used toe in when it improved performance when positioning speakers with Tune Dem. In practice, it resulted in usually no toe in but occasionally some. Almost never a lot. Then followed a period when they always used a lot of toe in and often positioned the speakers too far apart to begin with. I felt this was completely wrong and the demos suffered accordingly. Then about a decade later, the radical toe in started to fade away. And now I hear that digital EQ is taking care of things, so optimal positioning is no longer as important. Which is nonsense, as even with really bad speaker positions, I still find that performance improves as I switch that digital EQ off.

Very interesting to read your findings and how Linn has changed their approach over the years.

Back to these clips, I find that listening to the almost whispered phrase "Like the Spanish city to me", when sung the second time, Toe in gives me a tired Mark Knopfler. No Toe in gives me a Mark Knopfler with emotion in the lowered voice. And the guitar follows him with attention.

I found this very useful.

[Charlie1]

In my experience most of the best Linn speakers like anywhere from 0 to .5" of toe in. More that that has never really tuned well.

Thanks Tom.

[beck]

It is a funny thing that the listening we all use here to determin what is good and what is bad is a complex proces where we listen into the recording.
Outsiders that listen to these clips will only hear what is the "surface" of the sound and that is not a good sound at all!

[Music Lover]

Outsiders that listen to these clips will only hear what is the "surface" of the sound and that is not a good sound at all!

I'm sure they understand it's a relative comparison and not about absolute hifi performance.
BUT imho it's not difficult to get an indication of the absolute musicality.

[Charlie1]

I've been wondering about the effect of my Ethernet-over-Mains connectivity for a while so put it to the test. I figured it might be more noticeable using the ring main instead of fused spur so I've included that as well.

Anyone wanting to get a flavour of the benefit of a fused spur can use these clips for that too - or the benefit in the UK at least. Sorry but I never found out if the spur was laid in the 'right' or 'wrong' direction.

This is the order in which they were recorded:

Ring Main - EoM On: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sowwapgeugbsc ... n.MOV?dl=0
Ring Main - EoM Off: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8jfpqeafcqz6 ... f.MOV?dl=0
Fused Spur (4mm) - EoM Off: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6cio4wmzouhuq ... f.MOV?dl=0
Fused Spur (4mm) - EoM On: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tbfdvkelnelub ... n.MOV?dl=0

The EoM units are downstairs and HiFi upstairs.

The EoM was streaming a TV programme from iPlayer during the first and last recording. The units were switched off during the other two recordings.

I read a while back that these units can be so effective that someone's PC was able to obtain an IP address from their neighbour's DHCP server!

[beck]

The good news listening to these clips for those who does not have a seperated spur for hifi is that the core of the music remain the same. :-)
It is quite clear what gain a seperate spur gives. Calm and clear sound. The EoM has a marked influence on the sound in a negative way.
I would rank the clips (worst to best): main/EoM on, main/Eom of, s spur/EoM on, s spur/EoM of.

[Charlie1]

Cheers Beck. Do you find the negative impact of EoM units is more pronounced on the ring, or spur, or no different?

[beck]

As I hear it the negative impact is biggest when using the main ring.

[Charlie1]

Thanks. I'm struggling to hear much difference between EoM on and off. I get a feeling that the music seems somewhat agitated when it's 'on' but that's about it. I don't suppose you're able to pick out any particular element are you?

Maybe I just need to listen to my system for a while with them switched off and then go back to normal.