Playground for practical listening exercises

[lejonklou]

Just wish I could get hold of the same rubber feet Fredrik is using under his amps…

Below my big cases, they need a big washer that supports the entire top surface of the foot and a small washer that makes a contact surface area against the case of 1.3 mm2. The rubber foot alone doesn't sound nearly as good.

So something like this?, interesting. Instantly makes me wonder if a one piece step type washer like this may be an improvement, the ex-PanAm machinist in me looks to improve upon the metal washer stacking, or do you use nylon washers?

It sounds very promising to be in contact with an ex-PanAm machinist!

I have tried one piece variants (similar but not identical to your image), but two washers was always better. They should have their flatter sides against one another (which likely makes the contact area against the case smaller in practice than 1.3 mm2). An interesting detail is that the smaller washer needs to be 1 mm thick. The original one I tried was 1.2 mm. Then I found the 1 mm one, which was clearly better, but all of a sudden it went out of production. It was replaced by a 0.5 mm thick one, which I tested and it really sounded a lot worse (silly, I know!) I couldn't find any similar washer anywhere, so I contacted the factory in Germany that made it and asked them to make the 1 mm version for me. To my delight they agreed to do so! That carton I now have are the most expensive washers I ever bought.

I don't rule out that there could be a one piece solution that is even better. One probably needs to make and evaluate a LOT of versions, though.

[tpetsch]

I have tried one piece variants (similar but not identical to your image), but two washers was always better. They should have their flatter sides against one another (which likely makes the contact area against the case smaller in practice than 1.3 mm2). An interesting detail is that the smaller washer needs to be 1 mm thick. The original one I tried was 1.2 mm. Then I found the 1 mm one, which was clearly better, but all of a sudden it went out of production. It was replaced by a 0.5 mm thick one, which I tested and it really sounded a lot worse (silly, I know!) I couldn't find any similar washer anywhere, so I contacted the factory in Germany that made it and asked them to make the 1 mm version for me. To my delight they agreed to do so! That carton I now have are the most expensive washers I ever bought.

I don't rule out that there could be a one piece solution that is even better. One probably needs to make and evaluate a LOT of versions, though.

So funny, "That carton I now have are the most expensive washers I ever bought." ...But I know what you mean by not finding exactly the dimensions/or material type of a piece of hardware your looking for, I've even in the past made my own washers at home with a belt sander, sanding down & drilling out -or Dremeling out- something close until the desired dimensions are met, but I'd only needed maybe a dozen tops, if I needed hundreds this is obviously not the solution. But you give some great pointers here to play with, think I'll try some combinations of the washer types & dimensions you recommend under, say, my pre-amp feet and see where it goes, but like you said perfectly in another post, "The experiments could keep you busy for a couple of years!"

FWIW, This is link to an industrial hardware site here in the states that many manufacturers use and they also sell to the public. Did just one quick search for 1.0mm washers and these came up:
https://www.mcmaster.com/washers/thickn ... g-shims-7/

Click on an item and you'll see a "product Detail" link -in blue- click on it for a drawing of the exact item.

[ThomasOK]

Let’s see how promising they are, here’s the next comparison:

A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9jc6n7kssn1ch ... 7.mov?dl=0

B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hcqe7gimxkyi9 ... 1.mov?dl=0

Late to the party but I definitely prefer A as well. In B something is lost in the sauce.

[teatime]

I'm even later, but yeah.. A it is.

[Charlie1]

The clips below are a journey through 50 years of amplification - musically engaging amps that is.

Each system was warmed up and recorded one morning this week. All fronted by Lingo 2, Ekos 2, VM95ML and Slipsik 8.

Naim 12/160 ('74 - '77): https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ja7lgtt6pvvr ... 6.mp4?dl=0
Linn Wakonda/LK140 ('98 - '05): https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tjacbartvrw9 ... 4.mp4?dl=0
Lejonklou Boazu ('2016 - Now): https://www.dropbox.com/s/52me80i3mems2 ... 3.mp4?dl=0

The Boazu is at a slight disadvantage cos I've had to use a Linn mains lead and I know from before that this has a slight negative impact.

[beck]

Thank you for the lovely clips. A very nice journey indeed. :-)

[Spannko]

It’s been fascinating to watch (and listen along to!) your journey over the last couple of years charlie1.

[Tendaberry]

The Boazu sounding very good there, got my foot tapping...

[Charlie1]

Thanks for listening gents.

[tokenbrit]

The clips below are a journey through 50 years of amplification - musically engaging amps that is.

Each system was warmed up and recorded one morning this week. All fronted by Lingo 2, Ekos 2, VM95ML and Slipsik 8.

Naim 12/160 ('74 - '77): https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ja7lgtt6pvvr ... 6.mp4?dl=0
Linn Wakonda/LK140 ('98 - '05): https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tjacbartvrw9 ... 4.mp4?dl=0
Lejonklou Boazu ('2016 - Now): https://www.dropbox.com/s/52me80i3mems2 ... 3.mp4?dl=0

The Boazu is at a slight disadvantage cos I've had to use a Linn mains lead and I know from before that this has a slight negative impact.

Needs some 60s valve amplification :D

Interesting comparison; thanks for posting. Do you like them all, or is there a winner to your ears?

[Spannko]

And don’t forget Stephenson’s steam powered amp, it blew away the four donkeys chasing a carrot powered amp!

[Charlie1]

Needs some 60s valve amplification :D

Interesting comparison; thanks for posting. Do you like them all, or is there a winner to your ears?

Yes, that would be nice to have something serviced from the 60s but I think I've got enough amps still, evening thought I've sold some.

I definitely prefer the Boazu. It's a lot more tuneful and sounds better (clarity, agility, etc.). In a way, on many tracks the 12/160 is more coherent straight off the bat, yet at the same time it's much less tuneful and flowing in another way - I still think this is different parts of my brain making sense of the music in different ways. Crucially, the Boazu seems to build the songs and they get more interesting as they progress, whereas the other two go the opposite way, opening really well and then getting a bit boring - my KK1 and 4200 were similar. This last point is why I'm really pursuing Lejonklou amps now - vintage Linn/Naim work brilliantly as background music in my office, but for dedicated listening I think the Lejonklou recipe is more rewarding, but I don't really understand why.

I know why I went down the vintage Naim road and the benefits are still there to be heard but I have come back around a bit. Also, I think my system 4-5 years ago had gone too far in splitting the musicians apart somehow and the Nait helped glue things back together, especially on rock music. With the Kans and 92-spec LP12 things are much more together (to my ears) and there's scope for a more modern amp that can deliver in ways the older ones don't.

This is all based on my ears/brain and how they interpret music - I suspect others will be on very different pathways and experience things very differently

[Spannko]

Personally, I found charlie1’s latest trio of videos fascinating, particularly the Naim vs Boazu comparison. For many, the 12/160 (designed by JV) is the best Naim combination ever, and justifiably so. However, for me, the comparison against the Boazu was one of those “OMG” moments which left me speechless, just contemplating the enormity of what I was hearing. One of the best amps ever by one of the best designer’s ever couldn’t even come close to the natural pitch and musical timing of the Boazu. This is an amazing achievement Fredrik - well done!

[tokenbrit]

Personally, I found charlie1’s latest trio of videos fascinating, particularly the Naim vs Boazu comparison. For many, the 12/160 (designed by JV) is the best Naim combination ever, and justifiably so. However, for me, the comparison against the Boazu was one of those “OMG” moments which left me speechless, just contemplating the enormity of what I was hearing. One of the best amps ever by one of the best designer’s ever couldn’t even come close to the natural pitch and musical timing of the Boazu. This is an amazing achievement Fredrik - well done!

For me it's not the music that's the omg; the omg is the apparent effortlessness: in this comparison, at least, I find myself listening to the music thru Naim & Linn; whereas I just enjoy the music thru Lejonklou... Maybe that's why the Boazu builds interest through enjoyment, while the Naim & Linn amps in these clips lose something as your active listening drifts away - with Lejonklou, the music finds you even if you're not paying attention; it's fundamental.

[Spannko]

Yep, that too. As charlie1 also said, interest quickly wanes with the Linn and Naim amps. I’ve got exactly the same problem with a Majik amp I’m using whilst charlie1 is enjoying my Boazu!

[Charlie1]

with Lejonklou, the music finds you even if you're not paying attention; it's fundamental.

Yeah, I get that now. Only took about 7 years. Quite speedy for me really ;)

To be fair, not sure the KK1 and Tundra ever really gelled enough for me either. I'm quite sensitive to synergy and not sure they were always pulling in quite the same direction. You live and learn (hopefully).

Yep, that too. As charlie1 also said, interest quickly wanes with the Linn and Naim amps. I’ve got exactly the same problem with a Majik amp I’m using whilst charlie1 is enjoying my Boazu!

Sorry about that - my fingers are crossed for another postal strike! :D

[ThomasOK]

Personally, I found charlie1’s latest trio of videos fascinating, particularly the Naim vs Boazu comparison. For many, the 12/160 (designed by JV) is the best Naim combination ever, and justifiably so. However, for me, the comparison against the Boazu was one of those “OMG” moments which left me speechless, just contemplating the enormity of what I was hearing. One of the best amps ever by one of the best designer’s ever couldn’t even come close to the natural pitch and musical timing of the Boazu. This is an amazing achievement Fredrik - well done!

Mostly I agree on this except for a note about the NAP160. According to Julian himself "As far as I'm concerned the NAP250 is the only decent amp in the world, period!" I heard him make this comment to a friend who was thinking of upgrading from a NAP110 (after being told by Julian that a 110 couldn't drive his Isobariks - a true statement we didn't know at the time) and was wondering if the 250 was really worth the difference over the 160. He was a little taken aback by Julian's manner. On the other hand I was pleased he had talked to Julian first as it saved me from the embarrassment of having the same conversation. ;-) Result: I borrowed a 250 from the distributor the next week (who had heard the same conversation and had been the ones who told us the 110 was suitable). A week after that I bought one along with a 12S, which kept me happy until I got NAP135s.

Charlie, these clips certainly were VERY convincing to me. I actually liked the third clip with the Boazu. Considering my normal feelings towards the music of Kate Bush, that's all you need to know, and a strong compliment!

I have to admit it would be very cool to hear the same clip with a Marantz 7c and 8b pre/power combination. But you'd need to have a big stash of cash to pick up a pair of those in good condition. And I'm quite sure the outcome in terms of the winner would be the same.

[Charlie1]

Considering my normal feelings towards the music of Kate Bush, that's all you need to know, and a strong compliment!

:)

[Spannko]

Considering my normal feelings towards the music of Kate Bush, that's all you need to know, and a strong compliment!

:)

My thoughts too. I’ve always really disliked that song and the linn/naim amps just reinforced my dislike. OTOH, I was drawn right in on the Boazu and really enjoyed it. As tokenbrit said, it’s a fundamental improvement.

[markiteight]

The clips below are a journey through 50 years of amplification - musically engaging amps that is.

Each system was warmed up and recorded one morning this week. All fronted by Lingo 2, Ekos 2, VM95ML and Slipsik 8.

Naim 12/160 ('74 - '77): https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ja7lgtt6pvvr ... 6.mp4?dl=0
Linn Wakonda/LK140 ('98 - '05): https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tjacbartvrw9 ... 4.mp4?dl=0
Lejonklou Boazu ('2016 - Now): https://www.dropbox.com/s/52me80i3mems2 ... 3.mp4?dl=0

The Boazu is at a slight disadvantage cos I've had to use a Linn mains lead and I know from before that this has a slight negative impact.

Thanks, Charlie1. That was one of the more fascinating/educational comparisons I've heard. Great stuff!

Personally, I found charlie1’s latest trio of videos fascinating, particularly the Naim vs Boazu comparison. For many, the 12/160 (designed by JV) is the best Naim combination ever, and justifiably so. However, for me, the comparison against the Boazu was one of those “OMG” moments which left me speechless, just contemplating the enormity of what I was hearing. One of the best amps ever by one of the best designer’s ever couldn’t even come close to the natural pitch and musical timing of the Boazu. This is an amazing achievement Fredrik - well done!

For me it's not the music that's the omg; the omg is the apparent effortlessness: in this comparison, at least, I find myself listening to the music thru Naim & Linn; whereas I just enjoy the music thru Lejonklou... Maybe that's why the Boazu builds interest through enjoyment, while the Naim & Linn amps in these clips lose something as your active listening drifts away - with Lejonklou, the music finds you even if you're not paying attention; it's fundamental.

These comments really resonate with me and my exploration for better music reproduction. I didn't fully appreciate, until Spannko and Tokenbrit spelled it out, that fundamental shift in perception from 'wow that's good!' at the start of a song followed at some point by 'okay I've had my fill, on to the next' I get from a lesser system, to the 'I don't want the song to end' feeling I get from better systems. In Charlie1's latest comparison I only get that desire to keep listening from the Boazu clip. The Linn combo initially draws me in more than the Naims, but I lost interest faster. Fascinating.

I have to admit it would be very cool to hear the same clip with a Marantz 7c and 8b pre/power combination. But you'd need to have a big stash of cash to pick up a pair of those in good condition. And I'm quite sure the outcome in terms of the winner would be the same.

Thomas, I think you might be the best candidate to evaluate the Marantz 7/8 combo as you have the most appropriate speakers!

[ThomasOK]

Thomas, I think you might be the best candidate to evaluate the Marantz 7/8 combo as you have the most appropriate speakers!

While that is undeniably true when stated like that, I would lose the historical context due to my lack of any 70s Naim or 80s Linn amplification electronics. When I had a Marantz 8b with a pair of Quad ESLs in 1980 it was definitely a very fine combination. But I doubt it would be in the league of Tundra Mono 2.2s (much less the coming TM3), which I consider to possibly be THE ideal amp for Quads.

[Tendaberry]

Here's the next step in my support journey, do you prefer A or C? Don't forget to change the quality to HD before playing.

A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9jc6n7kssn1ch ... A.mov?dl=0
C: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5mnksflt3zfj ... C.mov?dl=0

[beck]

Changing audio quality did not change my impression listening and comparing the clips. I like C.

[springwood64]

Here's the next step in my support journey, do you prefer A or C? Don't forget to change the quality to HD before playing.

A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9jc6n7kssn1ch ... A.mov?dl=0
C: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5mnksflt3zfj ... C.mov?dl=0

I'm hearing an odd texture to the bass in A that is absent in C, so 'C' for me.

[Arjen]

Here's the next step in my support journey, do you prefer A or C? Don't forget to change the quality to HD before playing.

A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9jc6n7kssn1ch ... A.mov?dl=0
C: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5mnksflt3zfj ... C.mov?dl=0

I prefer C, more subtle delivery.