Playground for practical listening exercises

[SewerSleuth]

Ok, I'm not going to let this go on, because I have been a snake in the grass with this 2nd test and it's a little unfair perhaps...

Side 1 and Side 2 are both Side 1.

I just recorded the same track twice in a row immediately one after the other into the same file and then split it in 2.

Seems odd to me that the majority of people are preferring Side 2 to Side 1.

So, here is the old Side 2 as the new Side 1 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkHEl3H ... A?e=2BB3e3

And here is the real genuine Side 2 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkD1tOe ... l?e=xKCJJB

[lejonklou]

Seems odd to me that the majority of people are preferring Side 2 to Side 1.

Of course we do, as the two clips sound clearly different. Have you compared them yourself?

If your intention is to deceive, I'm afraid I must intervene. It's not a practice that I'm happy with, as it can undermine listener's confidence, decrease participation and ultimately make the Playground irrelevant. You may not be familiar with all the research done on people's ability to discriminate sensory impressions, but it's very easy to confuse a subject under test. To build confidence, learn techniques and practice discrimination is hard work but can radically increase discriminatory precision. Add some confusion and the precision evaporates.

There have been many times when two clips presented on this forum have sounded so similar that many participants couldn't tell them apart. I've personally given up plenty of times. Your Side 1 versus Side 2 don't belong to that category. It probably wasn't your intention, but your "trick" revealed that you have other factors influencing the quality of your clips. It would be a good idea to find out what those factors are if you want your clips to stay relevant and interesting.

[tokenbrit]

In making these recordings and admission, you have shown that you'd rather try to dupe this forum, and defend your recordings & your decision against the felt mat in the process, than be open minded to just listening to the other side...

[Defender]

Hi SeverSleuth,
thank you for giving me another lesson in life. Very much welcome. But I have to be honest it feels a little bit weird as our intention was to help you. So please don’t expect me to contribute anymore.

[Ron The Mon]

It would be a good idea to find out what those factors are if you want your clips to stay relevant and interesting.

SewerSleuth,
I just listened to your "genuine" comparison and that is a smaller difference than your "trick" difference (of which 2 easily sounded better). Something is definitely wrong.

Since you have a Mac, you have free iCloud storage. I pay 99¢ a month for extra storage. It is cheap. Try Apple iCloud to upload your recordings. If the same problem occurs, it is probably Audacity. Do you have every other app closed on your Mac during recordings and restarted the computer? Have you prioritized Audacity as an app? What Mac and OS do you have? What settings on Audacity are you using?

I gave up on Audacity years ago. I believe Lejonklou member "John" here is a "needle-drop" expert and has experience with Audacity. Perhaps he could give you tips on settings.


Yesterday, while playing a record, I weighed three other records to equal your Spec+ Analog Disc Sheet AP-UD1 (an extra 303 grams). I was surprised by how much the LP12 arm-board sank relative to the top-plate when the three extra records were placed on the first. Your first posts on this Forum were concerned and complained about the outer platter riding high. If you remove the Spec+ Analog Disc Sheet AP-UD1 and put the felt mat on, the outer platter will ride noticeably higher; do you think that is a fair comparison?

Also, the VTA is different between the two mats. Do you think that matters?

You didn't answer me previously about the felt mat; are you 100% sure it is a stock Linn felt mat?

Ron The Mon

[Tony Tune-age]

In this particular comparison, I prefer Mat 2 once again. Needless to say, it's been another learning process for sure. Good luck with your stereo system, and component selections.

Cheers

Mat 1 was the Spec+ mat. To me, in my living room, the improvement is pretty big over the felt mat. The clarity of the music shines through with less muddle in the middle.

So here's test 2 - now I'm testing the 2 sides of the felt mat as has been requested here.

The recording process, equipment and setup is exactly the same as the previous test.

Just one track this time - I'll Take Care of You by Joe Bonamassa & Beth Hart.

Side 1 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkE8QWz ... l?e=NKdiTX

Side 2 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkIqAFV ... f?e=7hih3N

[John]

It’s been so long ago that I used Audacity, I forgot more than remember. I listened to the latest comparison and preferred side 2. The lyrics just flowed better.

Using Audacity for showing up turntable differences was always helpful to me. Especially when it took considerable time to change the turntable back to its previous setup. Cirkus to Karousel would be a good example. I felt my needle drops sounded very close to what I was hearing live. It was great fun putting them out on Pink Fish forum before Tony banned needle drops. Heard lots of interesting new music in the process.

[Defender]

here is the promised comparison of the Naim MusicLine power strip

1) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m against text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxtuvfzepdnu7 ... 4.mov?dl=0

2) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m with text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aghdw23izpvh7 ... 5.mov?dl=0

and sorry for the „clumsy/heavy“ start of the song

[ThomasOK]

Tracks on the files:

1. Tin Pan Alley (AKA The Roughest Part of Town) by Stevie Ray Vaughan & Double Trouble, from the album Couldn't Stand The Weather, new vinyl, bought in 2020.
2. Bad Man's Song by Tears For Fears, from the album The Seeds of Love, old vinyl, bought in the 1990s. Track starts at about 9 minutes 18 seconds.
3. Once Upon a Time in The West by Dire Straits, from the album Communique, new vinyl, bought in 2020. Track starts at about 17 minutes 56 seconds.

Links to the files:

• Mat 1 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4Kkj03-6Y ... A?e=0FW0G9

• Mat 2 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkjwPaRt ... L?e=8zLzU3

I love the choice of music, three great tracks. I know I'm late to the party but Sunday and Monday are my days off and I avoid computers as much as possible on those days.

As to the comparison, I am not as happy with Mat 1, it sounds a little too Hi-Fi and pulled apart to me. Punchy but not so musical. Mat 2 gets me more into the music and has a better flow. I would guess it is the Linn mat but I would also guess that it is upside down. Of course, there are many variables that make up the musical quality of the LP12 but there is a lack of flow to the bass and a forwardness in the highs that I associate with the wrong side of the mat being up. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Lego]

here is the promised comparison of the Naim MusicLine power strip

1) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m against text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxtuvfzepdnu7 ... 4.mov?dl=0

2) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m with text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aghdw23izpvh7 ... 5.mov?dl=0

and sorry for the „clumsy/heavy“ start of the song

Without really concentrating I understood lyrics on the second 2) ,they didn't register with me on first 1).
I now have a slight bias so can't go back to listen again :0)

[ThomasOK]

Side 1 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkE8QWz ... l?e=NKdiTX

Side 2 - https://1drv.ms/u/s!At0f4R-k6W4KkkIqAFV ... f?e=7hih3N

OK, Side 2 is definitely the right side up and sounds really good, vocal more expressive and easier to follow when she gets loud, bass flows better, cymbals better timed and the instruments no longer sound like they are fighting each other. Side one is just flat and jumbled by comparison and sounds somewhat like what I heard in track 2 of the first comparison.

[kallesprätt]

here is the promised comparison of the Naim MusicLine power strip

1) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m against text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxtuvfzepdnu7 ... 4.mov?dl=0

2) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m with text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aghdw23izpvh7 ... 5.mov?dl=0

and sorry for the „clumsy/heavy“ start of the song

I prefer "with text"

[ThomasOK]

here is the promised comparison of the Naim MusicLine power strip

1) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m against text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxtuvfzepdnu7 ... 4.mov?dl=0

2) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m with text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aghdw23izpvh7 ... 5.mov?dl=0

and sorry for the „clumsy/heavy“ start of the song

Without really concentrating I understood lyrics on the second 2) ,they didn't register with me on first 1).
I now have a slight bias so can't go back to listen again :0)

I agree. Number 2 is easily better, more understandable and enjoyable.

[SewerSleuth]

For the positive replies, thank you, very useful and nicely spoken.

For the negative replies - who do you think you are to question my techniques for an evaluation test? All I did was give you the media to do the test yourself and I didn't tell you how to make your judgement. I gave it my best shot to give you the most information possible in a clean and balanced way with little or no intrusion from external sources. As I have said before, high end hifi (and I've been playing with this stuff for about 32 years now) is all about extracting as much of the artist's music as possible from the media and to give joy in the process, so how you expect to test such equipment from a muffled low quality recording made on a mobile phone that is heavily compressed is beyond me, but it's out there, so carry on if that's the way you want to do it.

To answer some questions...

No I cannot vouch that the Linn felt matt is an original one, but I would be surprised if it isn't. I had a Linn Basik with an original Akito arm which I bought new in about 1990 which was well used but I fell out of love with vinyl for maybe 10 years up until relatively recently. So I treated myself to a LP12 from eBay, and thankfully I got a good one. I took it to my local dealer to have the Lingo fitted and they commented on just how clean and well cared for it was inside and that it didn't need any kind of servicing. Having had the Basik for so long, I think this mat is the same, and I also trust the guy who I bought it from after the comments made by the dealer.

Other applications running on the computer while recording - no, absolutely not. I did everything I fealt was reasonable to exclude external factors from the comparison, which included not adjusting the deck in any way. The first thing to test in my mind is 'does it make a difference? And then if it does, take the better option and fine tune it afterwards.

Do I understand the TuneDem principles? Yes, I do, but it does not necessarily mean that I subscribe to them. I've spent a long time listening to hifi and I've been to trade shows and listened to demos and done all that stuff, just the same as most of you people have as well I'm sure. I've also heard a lot of (in my opinion of course) rubbish spouted about how good or bad equipment is. At the end of the day, it's my money in my pocket and I will spend it on what makes me happy, and a sound improvement will always make me happy. I fail to understand how using the TuneDem process can be a 'forum rule'. It's a forum for Pete's sake, a place where ideas, theories, questions and discussions take place and forum rules should cover little more than being polite, courteous and on-topic.

Did I dupe the readers by deliberately posting 2 recordings of the same side of the mat? Yes, I did. Why? Because this is common practice in all scientific tests. There is always a 'control' test in all good scientific research, one which is designed to iron out false positive results. Was it successful? Yes it was I think, but I didn't let it go on for very long, so to those who feel offended I apologise, but at the end of the day, you were duped.

Did the 2nd run of the track on the same side of the mat sound any different to the first one? I don't think so. I sat and listened to it pretty loud while it was playing through all three runs (because I did turn the mat over on the 3rd run). I didn't even stop the turntable, I used the arm lowering device on all lifts and drops at all times (always do anyway), I kept the lid down for all plays, nothing else was happening on the computer and the recording file didn't even stop and start for all 3 runs, I just let it go and then divided it up afterwards into the 3 media files.

Do I agree that the 2nd side sounds better? Well yes actually, but it's a very small margin. Did I mark the felt mat for side 1 and side 2? Yes, of course. Do I still justify the Spec+ mat? Yes, the improved performance on my system is palpable, but maybe that is as a result of my amp and speakers which are also contributing in that arena and maybe indulging me, which is something that none of you have heard in my test files. Maybe I will reconsider this approach for testing because of exactly this reason, that at the end of the day, it's what comes out of my speakers or into my headphones that really matters, so the whole system must be considered en masse, not just the source.

It seems to me that there is a trend for most often thinking that the 2nd track is better quality than the 1st one, not just with my tests, but with others on here also. Is this merely that by the time you are listening to a track the 2nd time (which is a track selected by the offerer and maybe one that you are unfamiliar with), you have become more familiar with it and you are naturally hearing more into it anyway, so it just seems to sound better?

I will consider myself royally told off and sent to bed with no milk or cookies for punishment.

Now get back to the music.

[markiteight]

so how you expect to test such equipment from a muffled low quality recording made on a mobile phone that is heavily compressed is beyond me, but it's out there, so carry on if that's the way you want to do it.

Because it works.

Do I understand the TuneDem principles? Yes, I do, but it does not necessarily mean that I subscribe to them.

From the forum rules:
"If you do not agree with the validity of the Tune Method OR regard a different method of evaluation as more important or valid, this forum is not for you."

I fail to understand how using the TuneDem process can be a 'forum rule'.

Because the entire purpose of this forum is discussion of the Tune Method. You wouldn't waltz into an organic farming forum and tout the latest pesticide, would you?

It's a forum for Pete's sake, a place where ideas, theories, questions and discussions take place and forum rules should cover little more than being polite, courteous and on-topic.

The topic of this forum is the Tune Method.

Did I dupe the readers by deliberately posting 2 recordings of the same side of the mat? Yes, I did. Why? Because this is common practice in all scientific tests. There is always a 'control' test in all good scientific research, one which is designed to iron out false positive results. Was it successful? Yes it was I think, but I didn't let it go on for very long, so to those who feel offended I apologise, but at the end of the day, you were duped.

We are well past the need for a "control", thank you very much. It has been thoroughly established that comparison by recording using the tune method works. It is not perfect, nor is it fool proof, and we know that. Your deception is exactly as Fredrik explained, an attempt to "undermine listener's confidence, decrease participation and ultimately make the Playground irrelevant." That behavior will not be tolerated here.

It seems to me that there is a trend for most often thinking that the 2nd track is better quality than the 1st one, not just with my tests, but with others on here also. Is this merely that by the time you are listening to a track the 2nd time (which is a track selected by the offerer and maybe one that you are unfamiliar with), you have become more familiar with it and you are naturally hearing more into it anyway, so it just seems to sound better?

I guess if you look at the choices people have made historically on this forum with expectation bias you could come to that conclusion, but it simply isn't true. This has also been discussed and evaluated and the conclusion is people here are quite capable of picking their favorite regardless of order. Besides, how do you know which clip we listened to first?

[Charlie1]

here is the promised comparison of the Naim MusicLine power strip

1) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m against text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxtuvfzepdnu7 ... 4.mov?dl=0

2) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m with text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aghdw23izpvh7 ... 5.mov?dl=0

and sorry for the „clumsy/heavy“ start of the song

Without really concentrating I understood lyrics on the second 2) ,they didn't register with me on first 1).
I now have a slight bias so can't go back to listen again :0)

I agree. Number 2 is easily better, more understandable and enjoyable.

Me too. Didn't seem a big difference overall.

[tokenbrit]

Without really concentrating I understood lyrics on the second 2) ,they didn't register with me on first 1).
I now have a slight bias so can't go back to listen again :0)

I agree. Number 2 is easily better, more understandable and enjoyable.

Me too. Didn't seem a big difference overall.

1 mumbles
2 sings

[OscarH]

here is the promised comparison of the Naim MusicLine power strip

1) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m against text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxtuvfzepdnu7 ... 4.mov?dl=0

2) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m with text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aghdw23izpvh7 ... 5.mov?dl=0

and sorry for the „clumsy/heavy“ start of the song

2 is a little better.

Though to me they’re not vastly different.

I suppose they shouldn’t be either - if everything else in the manufacturing process is the same I would think the cable direction ranks lower than the internal connections, in the same way it’s said that the bananas and soldering is more important than the speaker cable itself. Any thoughts on that?

[Spannko]

On first listen, I thought that although they sound different, it’s something I’d get used to and could enjoy either. Then I listened again, and the doubts started setting in. By the third listen, I was getting a definite preference for “with text” and “against” was sounding more and more disjointed.

It’s the same kind of difference we hear with the felt mat sides: they’re obviously the same kind of sound, but fundamentally (musically speaking) they’re quite different. Adding up all these “small but fundamental” differences can make a huge difference overall.

[Defender]

that seems to be an interesting one ...
in the room the strip „against text“ sounds much different to the other and it gives me a smile and sounds more musical to me as well the instruments flow much better.

I can also understand the voices better ... so much that I was checking if I linked the right files but I did.
So maybe I am falling into a trap? That was a recording with an IPad as my IPhone was not ready.

Maybe the song wasn’t really the right one as it starts slow

[Tendaberry]

I also have a clear preference for the second clip and fortunately my Music Line power strip is "with text".

[Spannko]

SewerSleuth,

You’re totally wrong with your view on this forums insistence on using the Tune Method and mobile phone recordings. Like with all organisations throughout history, if you don’t agree with how things are done, you’re free to leave and set up your own forum. By hanging around and being disruptive you’re just being antisocial.

However, I do believe there’s something to be learnt from your duping exercise. You’re quite right that people have a preference for the second listening. Linn acknowledged this many years ago by suggesting that a piece of music should be listened to three times before making a decision: the A B A test. I also believe that the process is wide open to bias. If I prefer A, and enough people prefer B, I can listen again and think “hmm, maybe they’re right!” So which do I prefer, A or B? I probably don’t know at this point. Of course, there are also times when I think “Nah, they’re all deaf!” lol 🤪

This isn’t an area I have any knowledge of, but hopefully, someone reading this will know how to set up a more reliable A B test using phone recordings and the Tune Method as an evaluation framework.

[OscarH]

Hello,
As promised a new set of clips here... A little tinkering with ‘something’ in my system. What I’ve done is cheap and fully reversible, but hopefully good.

Tried to pick a record that nobody has heard before. (One, at least) free beer awaits in Copenhagen if you get it without Shazam ;)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/d75pk7ed8r81 ... XsLfa?dl=0

Edit: no, the single difference is NOT the disappearence of the large pot of chili con carne from the balcony!

[beck]

Nice! :-)

They do sound different and I do prefer “point”.

I like the way the kickdrum integrate with the rest of the music and how it gets clearer and punchier in the “point” video.

[V.A.MKD]

here is the promised comparison of the Naim MusicLine power strip

1) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m against text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxtuvfzepdnu7 ... 4.mov?dl=0

2) MusicLine I-Sheng 2m with text
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aghdw23izpvh7 ... 5.mov?dl=0

and sorry for the „clumsy/heavy“ start of the song

I'm for 2) ... with text.