Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Spannko
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DIY Vs Netgear power supply

Post by Spannko »

Here’s the latest version of my power supply vs the standard Netgear.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B12GY8gBYudQcIT

The Netgear is the colourised version.
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

I prefer 10.22 and 10.23.
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

I slightly prefer the Netgear clips.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Mikeg »

"I did check the bass units and they return to position smoothly and slightly slowly when pushed in and let go"

That is a useful test to check if the seals are intact but that is rarely a problem. Unfortunately it doesn't test the the spike interface. This is a very important part of the correct operation of the SBL, and if the woofer box is not firmly on the spikes, the sound quality IS SERIOUSLY degraded.

If the speaker was not setup in-situ then it is almost certain that it is underperforming.

It would be a shame to give up on it without setting it up properly. A bit like buying a second hand LP12 and dismissing it without getting it setup properly with all the correct torques.

The thing is, assuming the gasket is ok, it doesn't take long to setup at the cost of a tube of clear silicone and a bottle of fairy liquid.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Tx Mike.

Sent you a pm
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Mikeg and Charlie1:

I find this discussion really interesting. How it ends we will see but with my system and setup it is very clear that the smallest change of anything makes it perform less well!

At this moment I have the best ever listening sessions with cd in my system I have ever had. Just moving the Lingo slightly on it’s shelf will disturb the performance and make me think that something is wrong...........

So, getting the SBL’s to perform as intended can be a big task and many things can stand in the way. I will look forward to hearing more about it and if a very careful setup can change things for the better. :-)
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Ron The Mon
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Proper SBL Setup

Post by Ron The Mon »

Mikeg wrote: 2020-12-30 10:02 "I did check the bass units and they return to position smoothly and slightly slowly when pushed in and let go"

That is a useful test to check if the seals are intact but that is rarely a problem. Unfortunately it doesn't test the the spike interface. This is a very important part of the correct operation of the SBL, and if the woofer box is not firmly on the spikes, the sound quality IS SERIOUSLY degraded.

If the speaker was not setup in-situ then it is almost certain that it is underperforming.

It would be a shame to give up on it without setting it up properly. A bit like buying a second hand LP12 and dismissing it without getting it setup properly with all the correct torques.

The thing is, assuming the gasket is ok, it doesn't take long to setup at the cost of a tube of clear silicone and a bottle of fairy liquid.
I agree with most of the above but have several additions and opinions.

First of all, the gaskets must also be replaced. There is a kit from Naim [see photo below] which includes the gaskets, sealant, aluminum pads, and staples. These MUST be used every time SBLs are setup. Take this cost into account when buying SBLs. In fact, assume you will screw-up your first install and buy two kits. I would also buy an extra tube of sealant and practice with two scrap pieces of wood first so you understand what you're doing and practice as many times as possible. This skill should be refined before attempting on the SBLs.

Second, I am confident Charlie1's SBLs are damaged. If they were transported horizontally, the spikes will have pierced the aluminum pads and damaged the wood veneer and probably MDF. In this case, the mid-bass cabinet will need to be repaired. This means removing the aluminum pads and staples, then mixing sawdust and wood glue and filling the divot. Check with an expert for a proper repair.

No matter how much care taken, if SBLs are removed from a room, that action will ensure their performance is compromised.

The top spikes of the SBL bass chamber should only put very small dimples into the aluminum pads; they should not pierce the pads. It definitely should not put ANY mark into the wood of the mid-bass cabinet. Upon disassembly, if the wood is severely damaged, you may never get a good sound.

I would suggest going through Fredrik Lejonklou’s speaker setup guide to find the best location first. Then reassemble the SBLs with the proper gaskets and pads kit. Then never move them. Listen and enjoy. I believe Charlie1 should never have purchased SBLs. They are not the speaker for a guy who changes his hi-fi more than I change my underwear.

Contact Naim and get an Owners Manual/setup guide. During the late ’90s, several owners (and Julian Vereker) published setup and driver torque values for the SBL on the original Naim Forum. Naim has that data.



Charlie1, as an aside, I agree with your ears regarding your Armageddon (NAPSA) demos. However, it’s because of the extreme vertical magnetic interference. ALL Naim amps (ie. transformers) should be as far away from preamps and cartridges horizontally as cables allow. Your Krystal cartridge’s performance is being destroyed by a thousand watts of vertical magnetism ruining its’ pickup. An Adikt is less affected.

Place the NAPSA and NAP160 as far away horizontally from the preamp and cartridge. It will substantially improve performance. Julian Vereker has been accused of stealing RCA design notes. However, where did RCA ever show that placing low voltage circuits out of range of transformers will drastically improve musical performance? Ideally, a Naim preamp should be over 14” to the right of your LP12. The preamp power supply/power amp should be another 14” to the right of that. I would suggest using all IKEA Lacks (or equivalents) and compare stacking versus horizontal racks. That would be a valuable audio comparison here.



All Naim amps (and the NAPSA) are very good. Some exceptional. SBLs are one of the best speakers ever designed and manufactured. Less than exceptional setup will not do them justice.

Ron The Mon

P.S.
Too much silicone, ruined wood.Image


SpikesImage


Spikes piercing aluminum pads and into wood.Image

Naim SBL Install KitImage
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Ron, although I would like to set one thing straight - I change my underpants more than I change my HiFi ! :D

The speakers were transported vertically and sounded really good to begin with - I'm not suggesting they were near optimum. However, I don't think they sound as good after I positioned and levelled them. I guess all that movement and leaning must have had a negative impact.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Tried the Geddon deck one last time, now moved to the far side of the LP12. I still don't get it. The timing seems quite off compared to the L1 like it's tripping over itself.

Both MM and MC cards were warmed up. My wife is at work so had to revert to the old iPhone.

I'm sorry to say that you can hear my stomach rumble at the beginning of one clip! I was keeping the volume down so as not to wake the kids.

Track 1
Lingo 1/Ekos 2/Adikt: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jl1q0vwrt7646 ... 5.MOV?dl=0
Geddon/Ekos SE/Krystal: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a4sajdi9ilbuq ... 9.MOV?dl=0

Track 2
Lingo 1/Ekos 2/Adikt:https://www.dropbox.com/s/a3jxqkxohru6y ... 6.MOV?dl=0
Geddon/Ekos SE/Krystal: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ci7bsuq1mn42 ... 0.MOV?dl=0

Maybe the Ekos SE/Krystal are not designed for pre-cirkus bearing and steel subchassis - perhaps the timing will still be off once a Lingo 2 is fitted? But I would have thought source first would take care of that.

Maybe it needs an ARO, maybe it's our mains quality, maybe it's this unit, maybe Olive units are better - lots of maybes but my Geddon journey is now at an end.
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

You have as far as I remember used your oak Sondek in many different configurations and it has never fully satisfied you (or has it?).

Maybe it is the oak plinth that is the “problem”?

Just thinking out loud........
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Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

You know, I had the same thought a couple of days ago! Although I also had the Krystal fitted at the same time so maybe I just don't get on with that.

I think best get the L2 fitted first and then take it from there.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by AlbannachFE »

+1 for Mikeg & Ron The Mon's contributions re. SBLs and Armageddon - spot on!

Also, while Lingo/ARO can prove quite good (though, unsurprisingly, not as good as Armageddon/ARO), Armageddon/Ekos? Not so much... IME.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

As we now are going into covid DEFCON 1 I know what I will do to survive. I will camp in my bedroom in front of my system playing cd’s all day long.
From time to time I will order new cd’s to my growing collection.

My system is not world beating or perfect but the plessure it gives me is life prolonging................I am sure of it! :-)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q47ooff0q77j7 ... 0.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xz4qf3f4xkbrl ... 2.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iuvlv8q4uuj7f ... 3.mov?dl=0


Redbud tree, shelter me, oxygen (so needed!), one day I got to get out of here! :-)
Playing cd’s…………
Defender
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

and I enjoy your system very much too.
Its impressive what you got your CD player to deliver.
I like Redbud tree very much too I think that is an extremely musical song - I bought the vinyl just for this one song.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Thank you Defender. Yes, it is such a lovely song!

I am exited to hear your system when you get it up and running again. :-)



.....and when sitting still in your room is not enough you just go loud !

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g162nqqx4bkkr ... 9.mov?dl=0
Playing cd’s…………
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Now to the part that should interest most of us.

Here are two clips with almost identically setup. Still with very different outcome that to me is the border where everything is decided.
One is the door into the world of hifi and the other is something else. I am the “something else” guy. Nothing is perfect. The choice is yours.

X) https://www.dropbox.com/s/phm07z0t4gvat ... 9.mov?dl=0

Y) https://www.dropbox.com/s/iuvlv8q4uuj7f ... 3.mov?dl=0
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

I'm for Y. The earlier clips sounded good as well.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote: 2021-01-05 17:36 As we now are going into covid DEFCON 1 I know what I will do to survive. I will camp in my bedroom in front of my system playing cd’s all day long.
From time to time I will order new cd’s to my growing collection.

My system is not world beating or perfect but the plessure it gives me is life prolonging................I am sure of it! :-)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q47ooff0q77j7 ... 0.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xz4qf3f4xkbrl ... 2.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iuvlv8q4uuj7f ... 3.mov?dl=0


Redbud tree, shelter me, oxygen (so needed!), one day I got to get out of here! :-)
All three are great - I'm straight into the music and want to listen until the end fo each clip.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote: 2021-01-05 22:20 Now to the part that should interest most of us.

Here are two clips with almost identically setup. Still with very different outcome that to me is the border where everything is decided.
One is the door into the world of hifi and the other is something else. I am the “something else” guy. Nothing is perfect. The choice is yours.

X) https://www.dropbox.com/s/phm07z0t4gvat ... 9.mov?dl=0

Y) https://www.dropbox.com/s/iuvlv8q4uuj7f ... 3.mov?dl=0
There's little in it for me but I'd plum for X if pushed.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

It can be hard to hear the change between X and Y using clips but in the room I hear X as the more detail focused and Y as the more integration focused setup and the one that I prefer.

The ealier clips are using my Y setup.
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Defender
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

I was not sure which one to choose but after your explanation I hear that some instruments in X are drawing the attention to them which is than perceived as more details as they stand more out.
I agree with you for Y but without you explanation I would have fallen for X.

Btw. My LP 12 went in the wrong direction after I tried to adjust the bounce - I made it worst and now I take a rest before I go on.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Defender wrote: 2021-01-06 11:32
Btw. My LP 12 went in the wrong direction after I tried to adjust the bounce - I made it worst and now I take a rest before I go on.
Maybe someone using Keel and EkosSE (ThomasOK?) can give you some messurements of the lenght from bolt to topplate for each spring. That could make a basis for fine adjustment.......



Bonus info: Even my Bob Dylan cd Modern Times is great now. Mission accomplished! :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

thats great to hear with respect to your Bob Dylan CD!

actually the measurements are a good idea - I not so much worry about the level but more about the bolts being straight but that might also be measured ... maybe
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Whatsmynaim »

beck wrote: 2021-01-05 22:20 Now to the part that should interest most of us.

Here are two clips with almost identically setup. Still with very different outcome that to me is the border where everything is decided.
One is the door into the world of hifi and the other is something else. I am the “something else” guy. Nothing is perfect. The choice is yours.

X) https://www.dropbox.com/s/phm07z0t4gvat ... 9.mov?dl=0

Y) https://www.dropbox.com/s/iuvlv8q4uuj7f ... 3.mov?dl=0
It's a new year and I'm back.

I prefer Y.

The difference can seem quite small at first but it's the type of difference that either makes me listen to music for a few minutes or many many hours!
So exactly what did you do this time to get these different results?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

I just kept trying different things with the power cable and if I show you a picture of what I have done you will shake your head in disbelief! Sadly my setup is so different from the norm that a copy of it would not help much.

What is certain is that vibration that goes into the cd player shall be tuned very delicately to get the best out of the player.
I have worked on the interconnect cables, the power cable and the cd tray. I have also experimented with what the cd player stands on.

Getting a good stand will be easier than my setup for sure. If it will bring the same kind of improvement I cannot say..........
Playing cd’s…………
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