Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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ThomasOK
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

beck wrote: 2020-09-30 12:34 Two quite different setups including two different lk100. Which do you prefer?

A. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6yaysw9i3f75h ... 9.mov?dl=0

B. https://www.dropbox.com/s/dj5wo1mxqz0mw ... 8.mov?dl=0
I prefer A. While the guitar on both sounds a bit "edgy" to me it sounds more so on B. Worse yet, when the drums kick in they sound flat and out of time on B whereas they are pretty good on A. I didn't really listen past about half way through.

OK, I listened the rest of the way through. The drummer in B needs new drums and new hands as it is all over the place. The other instruments are also playing together better in A which overall is fairly listenable, B is not.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

I agree completely with your assessment of the quality of ELO’s worst recording soundwise by far.

I will make further comments about the clips later. :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

A for me too
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

I prefer A as well.

But pardon me for being blunt: The LK100 is not the best of amps. You really deserve to listen to something else.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-01 00:58 I prefer A as well.

But pardon me for being blunt: The LK100 is not the best of amps. You really deserve to listen to something else.
For £100 you cannot get the best. :-)



So, why listen to a bad recording on an early AAD cd release?

Well, I like the album “Face The Music” a lot despite it’s lack of great sound. I use it on cd to test if I still get moved by the music when trying out things with the setup.

The connection is still there to me with both setups above.

But, I like the worst “sounding” setup the best! :-) B


To me A is on the way to a split in the way it present the music. Instruments are just clear of each other but not locked together. I find B more true to the bad recording.



I have listened to all kinds of amps. This is where I ended.

You can say that I deserve what I have got. A cheap nothing special system that I really enjoy! :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by V.A.MKD »

A for me.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by donuk »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-09-30 17:37
OK, I listened the rest of the way through. The drummer in B needs new drums and new hands as it is all over the place. The other instruments are also playing together better in A which overall is fairly listenable, B is not.
This for me illustrates the problem of listening to needle drops and the like.
It may be possible to choose a preferred track, but what does it tell you about the reproduction system?
It could be that the drummer really does need new drums and lessons. Maybe the instruments were not playing well together. In which case the system has been faithful.
But simply evaluating on what sounds more pleasant and most musical is a different question. Perhaps the system has introduced some sweet harmonics, reverberation and filtering.
I have been involved with a number of recordings which sounded mediocre in the studio which were subsequently processed to sound very acceptable. For me a replay system should always aim at reproducing the original event or producer's intention. It must not add sugar.
Just thoughts....

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

I agree with much of what you say here. But I don't really believe it is possible for anything a Hi-Fi system does to make a poor drummer with a bad set of drums sound like a good drummer with a fine set of drums. I just don't think the aberrations the gear causes can possibly work that way.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-02 17:56 I agree with much of what you say here. But I don't really believe it is possible for anything a Hi-Fi system does to make a poor drummer with a bad set of drums sound like a good drummer with a fine set of drums. I just don't think the aberrations the gear causes can possibly work that way.
Indeed. Never encountered any component or system that could improve the musicality of a recording. Not once.

Making the sound more pleasant is something completely different. That is why we use the Tune Method - to separate musicality from sound.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

donuk wrote: 2020-10-02 14:29 For me a replay system should always aim at reproducing the original event or producer's intention. It must not add sugar.
Just thoughts....

Donuk
I agree Donuk with the quote above and I agree with the latest comments from ThomasOK and Lejonklou.

What you have surely experienced here by now is that I actually use the playground as a “playground”.

To me it is all about investigating what is possible and what is not using clips.

Some comparisons are difficult but many are quite easy to draw clear conclusions from.

I am here to learn. An open approach is what I find interesting.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

This is an interesting one for me ;

I use 'enjoyment' and foot tapping as key indicators of musicality, and when I don't like the music - find it more difficult to decide.

I initially opted for B as it was less annoying for me ( A sounded even more tiresome) but listening a second time (and putting aside my dislike of this type of music) realise that A is definitely more musical, more in tune as Thomas OK has mentioned.

if you asked me as to which I would prefer to listen to - I would say neither;

But if i was forced to choose I would opt for B as I find it less annoying.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Lego »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-02 18:10
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-02 17:56 I agree with much of what you say here. But I don't really believe it is possible for anything a Hi-Fi system does to make a poor drummer with a bad set of drums sound like a good drummer with a fine set of drums. I just don't think the aberrations the gear causes can possibly work that way.
Indeed. Never encountered any component or system that could improve the musicality of a recording. Not once
I have,when I upgraded my LP12 and amplifiers. Charlie Parker albums were much more enjoyable and tuneful.In the context of hifi I dont know what you mean by musicality though.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-09-30 12:34 Two quite different setups including two different lk100. Which do you prefer?

A. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6yaysw9i3f75h ... 9.mov?dl=0

B. https://www.dropbox.com/s/dj5wo1mxqz0mw ... 8.mov?dl=0
If It was 2 different amps,I'd say A was Naim and B LKs :0) Thats a great sound Beck really enjoyed listening to both setups.
When you turn on your LK100 do you hear a click of the switch or a clunk of the transformer.When I heard the clunk of the transformer I knew the sound wasn't going to be as good.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Just been out buying a load of cd’s. :-)

I never hear a clunk from the transformer in my setup. I hear a click and sometimes a faint hum from the transformer. That is it.

Plugging the lk100 into my power strip between two of these using the first in line as power outtake for cd player or Lingo......

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihs6s2h28m97k ... 0.jpg?dl=0

...........has made a big difference. They are just power filters with this kind of layout:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/53re49aawvfpi ... 1.png?dl=0


The difference in sound between the two clips is mostly because of the setup. The two amps do sound different but only slightly so.

I get your Naim/Linn comment Leo. :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-10-03 13:04 Just been out buying a load of cd’s. :-)

I never hear a clunk from the transformer in my setup. I hear a click and sometimes a faint hum from the transformer. That is it.

Plugging the lk100 into my power strip between two of these using the first in line as power outtake for cd player or Lingo......

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihs6s2h28m97k ... 0.jpg?dl=0

...........has made a big difference. They are just power filters with this kind of layout:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/53re49aawvfpi ... 1.png?dl=0


The difference in sound between the two clips is mostly because of the setup. The two amps do sound different but only slightly so.

I get your Naim/Linn comment Leo. :-)
Yes ,when I could hear the transformer hum the sound was usually worse .I must admit where I lived at the time was near a small substation.
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Re: Playground for SBLs

Post by Charlie1 »

Wasn't looking for SBLs (or any more speakers) but my dealer offered them at a good price so I thought I'd give them a try. One previous owner.

They've literally just been plonked down on the carpet so not level or anything. I do have some grills to fit too. Quite a complicated speaker by the sounds of it.

I don't think they are as musical as Kans (as things stand now) but they are technically very proficient whilst still engaging.

The 32.5 has been running a few days but the BD160 is cold - I swapped it over cos they seemed to need a bit more power than the 110 could offer. Trusty VM95C on the Ittok/K9 body.

Sorry, more Eagles :D

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ygcrfri6jqio ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2020-10-06 19:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

Lego wrote: 2020-10-03 12:30
lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-02 18:10
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-02 17:56 I agree with much of what you say here. But I don't really believe it is possible for anything a Hi-Fi system does to make a poor drummer with a bad set of drums sound like a good drummer with a fine set of drums. I just don't think the aberrations the gear causes can possibly work that way.
Indeed. Never encountered any component or system that could improve the musicality of a recording. Not once
I have,when I upgraded my LP12 and amplifiers. Charlie Parker albums were much more enjoyable and tuneful.In the context of hifi I dont know what you mean by musicality though.
I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. Any true improvement to a system. or the right part of a system, will certainly make your recordings more enjoyable or tuneful. What we are saying is no system or component can make the recording actually better than it already is. This is in response to the comment that "maybe the drummer really does need new drums and lessons". If that were the case, I believe there is nothing you could do with the gear or the setup to make it sound like he was a good drummer with good drums. The best you could hope for is an accurate portrayal of how bad the drummer is.

We do seem to all agree that an accurate portrayal is what we would like, I think the differences might be in terms of which deviations we find most acceptable (and there are always deviations).
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by WheresMyNaim »

Who is this bad drummer? And pray tell me, how did he get recorded?
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Re: Playground for SBLs

Post by ThomasOK »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-10-06 19:01 Wasn't looking for SBLs (or any more speakers) but my dealer offered them at a good price so I thought I'd give them a try. One previous owner.

They've literally just been plonked down on the carpet so not level or anything. I do have some grills to fit too. Quite a complicated speaker by the sounds of it.

I don't think they are as musical as Kans (as things stand now) but they are technically very proficient whilst still engaging.

The 32.5 has been running a few days but the BD160 is cold - I swapped it over cos they seemed to need a bit more power than the 110 could offer. Trusty VM95C on the Ittok/K9 body.

Sorry, more Eagles :D

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ygcrfri6jqio ... 1.MOV?dl=0
It's OK. But I don't think Charlie1's Classic Rock radio station is sounding all that exciting today!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

WheresMyNaim wrote: 2020-10-06 19:27 Who is this bad drummer? And pray tell me, how did he get recorded?
Bev Bevan from ELO. Jeff Lynne realised it and later on made some of the drum tracks himself when he as producer on the records did not get on with Bevans drumming! :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by WheresMyNaim »

beck wrote: 2020-10-06 19:35
WheresMyNaim wrote: 2020-10-06 19:27 Who is this bad drummer? And pray tell me, how did he get recorded?
Bev Bevan from ELO. Jeff Lynne realised it and later on made some of the drum tracks himself when he as producer on the records did not get on with Bevans drumming! :-)
Gratitude Beck. Rumor has it Macca replaced Ringo on drums sometimes.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Yes, same story! :-)
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-10-06 19:01 Wasn't looking for SBLs (or any more speakers) but my dealer offered them at a good price so I thought I'd give them a try. One previous owner.

They've literally just been plonked down on the carpet so not level or anything. I do have some grills to fit too. Quite a complicated speaker by the sounds of it.

I don't think they are as musical as Kans (as things stand now) but they are technically very proficient whilst still engaging.

The 32.5 has been running a few days but the BD160 is cold - I swapped it over cos they seemed to need a bit more power than the 110 could offer. Trusty VM95C on the Ittok/K9 body.

Sorry, more Eagles :D

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ygcrfri6jqio ... 1.MOV?dl=0
They are ok and I guess they fill the room better than the Kans kan! :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

WheresMyNaim wrote: 2020-10-06 19:38 Rumor has it Macca replaced Ringo on drums sometimes.
I like Ringo's drumming on Beatles LPs, especially the earlier ones where his timing is great to my ears. I guess he wasn't the most technically proficient though.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Ref SBLs, yes they do fill the room nicely.

I'm impressed by their technical abilities more than anything. They seem surprisingly good for such an old speaker design, particularly the treble and bass, although the bass isn't as natural as the Briks.

Charlie's Classic Rock Radio is always at the ready :)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-10-06 19:43
WheresMyNaim wrote: Rumor has it Macca replaced Ringo on drums sometimes.
I like Ringo's drumming on Beatles LPs, especially the earlier ones where his timing is great to my ears. I guess he wasn't the most technically proficient though.
Me too and I have no problem enjoying ELO with Bevan on drums either. Maybe because it is music that hit me in my teens....
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