Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Flowmotion
Member
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 2018-03-25 17:40
Location: Stockholm

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Flowmotion »

Hello Fredrik! Correct, in the meaning that her singing felt mechanical and flat.
In the normal version the phrasing is very sensitive, more in time I suppose and also more cantabile. Then again, an iPad is what it is even thou the large Pro model is superior compared to my smaller iPad Air.

Kind regards / Flowmotion
Källa. Sagatun 1.4. Tundra 2.2. Quad ESL-57. LP12 Pre cirkus. Slipsik 5.1.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-07-24 23:40
    1. Pitch accuracy is the first and very important step on the way to musical understanding.
      2. Then follows how easily tunes can be understood.
        3. Then the understanding of complex tunes, nuances and interplay.

        That is what I mean by musical understanding.

        Ah OK, now that I know exactly what you mean by “Musical Understanding”, I agree 100% !

        Could I suggest you incorporate the above definition into your Tune Method pdf? It’s an important piece of information which will help to make sure we’re all singing from the same hymn sheet!
        User avatar
        V.A.MKD
        Very active member
        Very active member
        Posts: 862
        Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
        Location: Skopje / Europe
        Contact:

        Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

        Post by V.A.MKD »

        beck wrote: 2020-07-24 20:47 For my part this is not an attack on the tune method. It is more a recognition that the clips we make can fool us in some areas more than others when talking about very, very small differences.

        The method (using clips) when closing in on the instruments being or not being in tune is not accurate enough. Put it another way we are maybe not good enough when trying to decode the clips.

        Regarding my clips I assure you that non of them sound out of tune in my room but one is relaxed and the other is a bit up tight sounding.
        +1, for all clips and all systems ... just a very small differences (as you say) ...
        Yes, some time wards that I use are not so ... but it is in direction to clear the differences between two clips (or changes that are made or 2 lp / performances ...) not to make valuation of System or Tune Method ... :-)
        And as Spannko say ... Never in my life have I heard a “good” system which plays out of tune! or as you say German Orchestra ...
        Music First ...
        Vlado
        User avatar
        V.A.MKD
        Very active member
        Very active member
        Posts: 862
        Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
        Location: Skopje / Europe
        Contact:

        Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

        Post by V.A.MKD »

        Spannko wrote: 2020-07-25 00:37
        lejonklou wrote: 2020-07-24 23:40
          1. Pitch accuracy is the first and very important step on the way to musical understanding.
            2. Then follows how easily tunes can be understood.
              3. Then the understanding of complex tunes, nuances and interplay.

              That is what I mean by musical understanding.

              Ah OK, now that I know exactly what you mean by “Musical Understanding”, I agree 100% !

              Could I suggest you incorporate the above definition into your Tune Method pdf? It’s an important piece of information which will help to make sure we’re all singing from the same hymn sheet!
              Yes Spannko, excellent one ... to incorporate "Musical Understanding" in "Tune Method" ... of course if it is possible.
              Music First ...
              Vlado
              Whatsmynaim
              Active member
              Active member
              Posts: 198
              Joined: 2019-10-29 23:55

              Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

              Post by Whatsmynaim »

              ..I really should have worded my post differently to avoid confusion because tune dem rules, but
              listening for the tune of different instruments is entry level stuff (think Rega Planar 3) and just the beginning
              of the journey to musical understanding.

              Many thanks to Fredrik for explaining the different steps and what I meant with my post.
              Last edited by Whatsmynaim on 2020-07-25 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
              beck
              Very active member
              Very active member
              Posts: 2752
              Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

              Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

              Post by beck »

              Whatsmynaim wrote: 2020-07-25 17:34
              Many thanks to Fredrik for explaining the different steps.............
              +1

              It is great to have you and Flowmotion taking part in the discussions. What a great one that came out of my cd clips.

              😃
              Playing cd’s…………
              FairPlayMotty
              Very active member
              Very active member
              Posts: 769
              Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
              Location: Scotland

              Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

              Post by FairPlayMotty »

              From reading other posts here my view might be controversial though it's not intended to be.

              I believe it's possible to have your cake and eat it with the right HiFi system, i.e. you can have musicality and the detail of the individual instruments etc. When I was a member of Ronnie Scott's jazz club and listening to great jazz bands I experienced both and I don't see why I shouldn't from my HiFi. I re-read Martin Collom's piece from Stereophile and can't find fault with it or the TuneDem method. My ears don't allow me to be boxed in by a philosophy of listening. Each philosophy seems to me to try to describe what you experience from as close to live music as you can get.

              IMHO Agent_Kith accurately describes HiFi as an illusion. We're using electronics in an attempt to re-create with accuracy what happened in the recording. It's a very rewarding illusion which might explain the two new DACs that I ordered!
              Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
              User avatar
              lejonklou
              Administrator
              Administrator
              Posts: 6524
              Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
              Location: Sweden
              Contact:

              Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

              Post by lejonklou »

              Spannko wrote: 2020-07-25 00:37
              lejonklou wrote: 2020-07-24 23:40
                1. Pitch accuracy is the first and very important step on the way to musical understanding.
                  2. Then follows how easily tunes can be understood.
                    3. Then the understanding of complex tunes, nuances and interplay.

                    That is what I mean by musical understanding.

                    Ah OK, now that I know exactly what you mean by “Musical Understanding”, I agree 100% !

                    Could I suggest you incorporate the above definition into your Tune Method pdf? It’s an important piece of information which will help to make sure we’re all singing from the same hymn sheet!
                    Thank you, good idea.

                    I have rewritten that text a couple of times and will do so again after my vacation. It's interesting to note that each time I re-read it, I feel the need to change some parts. This is mainly thanks to the discussions in here! It's not only a question of wording, but I feel that we're continually taking small steps closer to a better and more complete understanding of what we mean by a tuneful HiFi system.
                    User avatar
                    lejonklou
                    Administrator
                    Administrator
                    Posts: 6524
                    Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
                    Location: Sweden
                    Contact:

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by lejonklou »

                    FairPlayMotty, do you have a link to that piece by Martin Colloms?
                    FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-07-25 22:22 My ears don't allow me to be boxed in by a philosophy of listening.
                    It's important to know that the Tune Method is not a philosophy of listening. It's only a method of evaluation; which is better, A or B?
                    Whatsmynaim
                    Active member
                    Active member
                    Posts: 198
                    Joined: 2019-10-29 23:55

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by Whatsmynaim »

                    FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-07-25 22:22 I believe it's possible to have your cake and eat it with the right HiFi system, i.e. you can have musicality and the detail of the individual instruments etc.
                    I would say you are right, but I never felt relying on tune dem must mean you sacrifice something. It only makes the music even more exciting and on many recordings you get tons of detail but in a way that makes sense. Something well recorded played on an LP12 is the most hifi I ever heard because it almost sounds like a real performance! So there you have the cake and can still eat it.
                    FairPlayMotty
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 769
                    Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
                    Location: Scotland

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by FairPlayMotty »

                    The Hakai does it more for me than vinyl. It's a huge turnaround for me. I used to play vinyl almost exclusively. My Ikemi never did it for me. Since moving house my turntable, PSU and phone stage are in a cupboard. They'll come out soon but the Hakai sounds better to me and if someone had told me that a year before the Hakai I would have laughed out loud. Life has good surprises if your mind remains open.
                    Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
                    FairPlayMotty
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 769
                    Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
                    Location: Scotland

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by FairPlayMotty »

                    lejonklou wrote: 2020-07-26 00:08 FairPlayMotty, do you have a link to that piece by Martin Colloms?
                    FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-07-25 22:22 My ears don't allow me to be boxed in by a philosophy of listening.
                    It's important to know that the Tune Method is not a philosophy of listening. It's only a method of evaluation; which is better, A or B?
                    https://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html

                    I know TuneDem is a method of evaluation Fredrik but to read some comments on the internet it's almost like a cult. Martin Colloms takes an unfair beating all over the internet. I see the approach he describes and TuneDem as frameworks for the somewhat tricky business of evaluation. If I was a betting man I'd wager some other brave soul will suggest another framework in the next decade.

                    Martin Colloms wrote a more detailed piece and I believe he wrote an attempt to rebut the unnecessary and savage criticism he received. I bookmarked them some time back. If I find them I'll post those. I had respect for him early in my HiFi journey - I bought my first HiFi loudspeakers when I was young based on his review and listening to them.
                    Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
                    beck
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 2752
                    Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by beck »

                    In my head it has always been about how close hifi could get to something real! To me it is not close.

                    My reference point is outside the hifi world.

                    Starting with the recording we loose a lot of information and it only goes downhill from there.

                    I my mind we are searching for a “miniature” world that can bring the emotion across. We hunt for as much “unchanged” information in a weak signal from far, far away. 😃



                    I think our different approaches are part of what makes the discussions interesting.
                    Playing cd’s…………
                    Lego
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 1147
                    Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
                    Location: glasgow

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by Lego »

                    lejonklou wrote: 2020-07-26 00:08 FairPlayMotty, do you have a link to that piece by Martin Colloms?
                    FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-07-25 22:22 My ears don't allow me to be boxed in by a philosophy of listening.
                    It's important to know that the Tune Method is not a philosophy of listening. It's only a method of evaluation; which is better, A or B?
                    One thing I like about the tune dem method is that it's easy to pick which one is better but it doesn't necessarily bind you to the better item.
                    I remember listening to a friend's Tukans and they were definitely more tuneful than my Kan IIs but when I went back to my Kans I could easily forget about the Tukans.

                    What I'd like to know is what is it that makes the inferior one sound so broken that you can't go back !?
                    I know that tune
                    FairPlayMotty
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 769
                    Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
                    Location: Scotland

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by FairPlayMotty »

                    To me this was the part of the many pages in the Colloms article that stuck out:

                    "Is beauty sufficient in itself?
                    There is a real danger that the audiophile community---manufacturers, critics, and customers alike---has become obsessed with the search for absolute beauty in reproduced sound and has lost sight of the underlying animal force essential to a truly musical experience. Drama, surprise, and dance elements are essential to most music at almost every level of taste."

                    https://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html

                    It's a long read. Obviously the sections on digital music have aged. That's inevitable as time passes.
                    Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
                    beck
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 2752
                    Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by beck »

                    FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-07-28 01:55 To me this was the part of the many pages in the Colloms article that stuck out:

                    "Is beauty sufficient in itself?
                    There is a real danger that the audiophile community---manufacturers, critics, and customers alike---has become obsessed with the search for absolute beauty in reproduced sound and has lost sight of the underlying animal force essential to a truly musical experience. Drama, surprise, and dance elements are essential to most music at almost every level of taste."

                    https://www.stereophile.com/reference/23/index.html

                    It's a long read. Obviously the sections on digital music have aged. That's inevitable as time passes.
                    A relevant quate even today.
                    Playing cd’s…………
                    Charlie1
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 4831
                    Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
                    Location: UK

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by Charlie1 »

                    Yeah, I liked that too. I thought it was very well written overall.

                    The only thought I had is, 'do audiophiles need attributes like "purity" in order to enjoy their music the way we need "tunefulness" and "good timing" to enjoy ours?'. Are we doing them a disservice? Perhaps many of them enjoy music as much as us - perhaps they just have different sensititives and therefore have different requirements to take them there.
                    Spannko
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 2292
                    Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
                    Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by Spannko »

                    Some people are literally tone deaf (they suffer from a condition called amusia) and are unable to detect or reproduce the pitch of a note, so it’s possible that other elements of the reproduced sound become more important to them. People with amusia are able to recognise rhythm, so they can still enjoy listening to music.
                    User avatar
                    springwood64
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 789
                    Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
                    Location: UK

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by springwood64 »

                    Charlie1 wrote: 2020-07-28 08:12 Yeah, I liked that too. I thought it was very well written overall.

                    The only thought I had is, 'do audiophiles need attributes like "purity" in order to enjoy their music the way we need "tunefulness" and "good timing" to enjoy ours?'. Are we doing them a disservice? Perhaps many of them enjoy music as much as us - perhaps they just have different sensititives and therefore have different requirements to take them there.
                    I enjoyed the article too. However I'm not sure who is an 'audiophile' if readers or writer are not. Or is it a term used mainly to denigrate?

                    Take the test 😀 https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/audiophil ... eal-truth/
                    Pete

                    Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
                    FairPlayMotty
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 769
                    Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
                    Location: Scotland

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by FairPlayMotty »

                    springwood64 wrote: 2020-07-28 20:02
                    I enjoyed the article too. However I'm not sure who is an 'audiophile' if readers or writer are not. Or is it a term used mainly to denigrate?

                    Take the test 😀 https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/audiophil ... eal-truth/
                    Great link Pete! Guilty of audiophile tendencies :-)

                    I bought my house with my HiFi in mind. Question ten got me. On a business trip to Tokyo I found pressings of albums by Steely Dan, The Velvet Underground, Nick Drake etc. I hadn't seen before or heard of. I already had the albums but couldn't help myself. Kid in a candy store.
                    Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
                    Charlie1
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 4831
                    Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
                    Location: UK

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by Charlie1 »

                    springwood64 wrote: 2020-07-28 20:02Or is it a term used mainly to denigrate?
                    Yep, for lack of a better one. Maybe a bit lazy on my part.
                    beck
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 2752
                    Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by beck »

                    Comparing vinyl and cd playback again:

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4m2lo1s1dncl ... 8.mov?dl=0

                    Turn volume one notch down before listening to the cd clip.

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/t7e1o4yvxvxtd ... 3.mov?dl=0


                    Not completely equal using a “new” old lk100 and years between the clips. Later I will try using the same amp and post here if it makes a difference.
                    Playing cd’s…………
                    beck
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 2752
                    Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by beck »

                    Last post from me comparing vinyl and cd replay in my system using the same amp in both clips.

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dh1sb7kfhu7s ... 9.mov?dl=0

                    No adjustment of volume.

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwfe9jv9c0akz ... 2.mov?dl=0


                    (Sorry about the old vinyl clip not starting at once)
                    Playing cd’s…………
                    User avatar
                    V.A.MKD
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 862
                    Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
                    Location: Skopje / Europe
                    Contact:

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by V.A.MKD »

                    beck wrote: 2020-08-09 12:08 Comparing vinyl and cd playback again:

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4m2lo1s1dncl ... 8.mov?dl=0

                    Turn volume one notch down before listening to the cd clip.

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/t7e1o4yvxvxtd ... 3.mov?dl=0


                    Not completely equal using a “new” old lk100 and years between the clips. Later I will try using the same amp and post here if it makes a difference.
                    Hi Beck,
                    Long time no see :-).
                    Very good choice of music and (also for) comparison. Vocal with Back vocal and how they are playing between each other and rest of the band is special here and help to recognize everything in this comparison ...
                    Typical differences between LP/analog and CD/digital. Musicality of your CD come very close to LP, but there are still differences ... which is OK/normal and what is most important make you happy.
                    You relay go several steps forward ..... enjoy :-)
                    Music First ...
                    Vlado
                    User avatar
                    V.A.MKD
                    Very active member
                    Very active member
                    Posts: 862
                    Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
                    Location: Skopje / Europe
                    Contact:

                    Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

                    Post by V.A.MKD »

                    beck wrote: 2020-08-09 16:17 Last post from me comparing vinyl and cd replay in my system using the same amp in both clips.

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dh1sb7kfhu7s ... 9.mov?dl=0

                    No adjustment of volume.

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwfe9jv9c0akz ... 2.mov?dl=0


                    (Sorry about the old vinyl clip not starting at once)
                    Here the differences are even smaller ...
                    Music First ...
                    Vlado
                    Post Reply