Playground for practical listening exercises

[Defender]

I did experimented with a different setup as I was not happy that my armcable into the Linto and the output cable from the Linto touched each other - meaning this is a cumulative setup as I completely had to reposition the Linto (at the same time followed Beck‘s advice to do some spring cleaning ;))

before
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2h2bp5sdh58il ... 6.mov?dl=0

now
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vesyasnhsw8fd ... 2.mov?dl=0

[beck]

Lovely. It is clear to me that touching cables are to be avoided. The free flowing music (like with markiteight’s clip) is easy to hear in the “now” clip.

[Defender]

the issue I have is that I feel like I am missing something. I feel that it tune dems better but I kind of feel less engaged - the music doesn’t touch me as much.

Here is what I did except moving the Linto as I said it is a cumulative change anyway as most of the cables are routed differently.
I bought the Oelbach Phaser which Tendaberry spoke about. Checking for the right phase on the Linto it gave inconsistent results. To a degree that I opened the Linto to check which pin got the L1 (black) cable internally.
Further the Linto seems to have some kind of network filtering right at the power input socket. However what I saw made me change the phase for the Linto.

So in the after clip I was making sure
1 input and output cables didn't touch
plus:
2 different position of Linto in the room (which was necessary to achieve the first) and
3 change of phase.

But I seem to miss something which I don’t know if I am addicted to the wrong thing and I just need to get used to live without it? I have the feeling that might be a big learning for me?

same clip as after
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vesyasnhsw8fd ... 2.mov?dl=0

just reversing phase
https://www.dropbox.com/s/beqeyybw05f2m ... 5.mov?dl=0

[beck]

Yes, of these two I prefer your last clip.

I do not know what is going on but one thing is certain. Believe what you feel and hear.

[Defender]

this is strange I think the second clip adds something ... maybe some graininess which creates an impression of more space and transparency and engagement. Maybe it creates some kind of restlessness which I misunderstand as engaging?
I will probably hear longer with the setting of the first clip (normal phase) and see if it creates an aha moment over time.

[V.A.MKD]

I did experimented with a different setup as I was not happy that my armcable into the Linto and the output cable from the Linto touched each other - meaning this is a cumulative setup as I completely had to reposition the Linto (at the same time followed Beck‘s advice to do some spring cleaning ;))

before
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2h2bp5sdh58il ... 6.mov?dl=0

now
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vesyasnhsw8fd ... 2.mov?dl=0

I'm for "now" ... it's freedom ...

[V.A.MKD]

the issue I have is that I feel like I am missing something. I feel that it tune dems better but I kind of feel less engaged - the music doesn’t touch me as much.

Here is what I did except moving the Linto as I said it is a cumulative change anyway as most of the cables are routed differently.
I bought the Oelbach Phaser which Tendaberry spoke about. Checking for the right phase on the Linto it gave inconsistent results. To a degree that I opened the Linto to check which pin got the L1 (black) cable internally.
Further the Linto seems to have some kind of network filtering right at the power input socket. However what I saw made me change the phase for the Linto.

So in the after clip I was making sure
1 input and output cables didn't touch
plus:
2 different position of Linto in the room (which was necessary to achieve the first) and
3 change of phase.

But I seem to miss something which I don’t know if I am addicted to the wrong thing and I just need to get used to live without it? I have the feeling that might be a big learning for me?

same clip as after
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vesyasnhsw8fd ... 2.mov?dl=0

just reversing phase
https://www.dropbox.com/s/beqeyybw05f2m ... 5.mov?dl=0

For me the first clip ... "same clip as after" ...
Comparing to second clip on first everything is on it's place ...

[beck]

My take on this (and I can be wrong):

I do not believe that your earlier clips have been played with wrong Linto phase. I really liked Behind The Wheel with Depeche Mode.

I hear a slight improvement in flow between your “before” and “just reversing phase” clips but they strike me as being in the same “character” (same Linto phase).

Your “now” clip I heard as having a better flow than ”before” and did not mention the changed character of the sound.

This change could be because of wrong phase on the Linto? Maybe Linn used a wrong colour cable in the first place?

[Defender]

Thank you guys its always nice to have feedback ... and I still feel like student on tune dem so your help is much appreciated.
I feel the need to state what was what in case my naming of clips was confusing.

before (1) Linto in front of the loudspeaker, in and output cables touching each other, phase like all clips before
now / after (2) Linto left of loudspeaker, in and output cables not touching, phase changed (phase on black)
same clip as after (3) see above clip after (2) ... nothing changed
just reversing phase (4) Linto left of loudspeaker, in and output cables not touching, phase like all clips before and like clip 1

as I understand it Beck preferred clip 4
and Vlado preferred clip 2 (which is the same like clip 3)

I was going back to the setting like clip 2 hoping I could live with it but after one hour I switched back to having the phase like I always had.
The strange thing is that clip 2/3 is having the phase at the left pin like usual for Linn and Lejonklou and at the black cable in the Linto.
Having the phase at right pin and at the blue cable (N) in the Linto (unusual) gives the more appreciated result for Beck and myself clip 4

[beck]

And just to make it even more complex there is something about “before” I really like. The firm beat. It may have something to do with the different time of day the recording was made (evening instead of afternoon).

[Charlie1]

In response to ThomasOK's request, here's some clips playing around with cable arrangement:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ra7duxexlfjw ... t.MOV?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/52s54c8klj630 ... c.MOV?dl=0

Another vote for clip 2, quite a lot better.

+1
Using the mac and headphones today which is much more tuneful than my Sony work phone. But I still find that my initial response to any clip is to prefer A. Only if I take a bit more time can I be sure. This was another example of that. Makes no difference if I do the AAB method instead of just AB.

[Charlie1]

I did experimented with a different setup as I was not happy that my armcable into the Linto and the output cable from the Linto touched each other - meaning this is a cumulative setup as I completely had to reposition the Linto (at the same time followed Beck‘s advice to do some spring cleaning ;))

before
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2h2bp5sdh58il ... 6.mov?dl=0

now
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vesyasnhsw8fd ... 2.mov?dl=0

I really like your system Defender. I could happily listen to a lot more of that. I think it has improved quite a lot.


I prefer the 2nd 'now' clip.

[Charlie1]

same clip as after
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vesyasnhsw8fd ... 2.mov?dl=0

just reversing phase
https://www.dropbox.com/s/beqeyybw05f2m ... 5.mov?dl=0

I slightly prefer the 1st clip 'same clip as after' but not much in it for me.

[markiteight]

But I still find that my initial response to any clip is to prefer A. Only if I take a bit more time can I be sure. This was another example of that. Makes no difference if I do the AAB method instead of just AB.

I often encounter this as well, although I tend to be biased toward B. If I am unsure of my preferences with AAB I'll leave it alone for a while and return with a fresh mind and try BBA. I find that if I do it that way...I still get it wrong. ;-)

[Charlie1]

lol :)

[tokenbrit]

same clip as after
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vesyasnhsw8fd ... 2.mov?dl=0

just reversing phase
https://www.dropbox.com/s/beqeyybw05f2m ... 5.mov?dl=0

Reverse phase but just seems too exaggerated & a bit awkward to me, with everything a bit separated - that makes it easier to hear the timing & individual elements, but they just don't gel in my ears & brain. The 'now/same' clip loses just a little of the attack, and is less impressive, but sounds better for it musically. That's what I get from the clips at least - could be different in room, and I can see why someone might prefer the reverse.

Curious whether it's worth revisiting the platter angle with the 'correct' phase to see if you go back that millimeter... ;)

[Defender]

hi tokenbrit - thats really funny as it seems you have read my mind - I know I can bring back the attack and also thought that might be the preferred mix. Lets see. I think that Beck also meant with referring to the firm beat.
Thank you for all your comments.

[lejonklou]

But I still find that my initial response to any clip is to prefer A. Only if I take a bit more time can I be sure. This was another example of that. Makes no difference if I do the AAB method instead of just AB.

I often encounter this as well, although I tend to be biased toward B. If I am unsure of my preferences with AAB I'll leave it alone for a while and return with a fresh mind and try BBA. I find that if I do it that way...I still get it wrong. ;-)

That's funny. I've never felt that I have a preference for either A or B. I feel that when listening to A, I set an emotional baseline. Usually it's enough to hear it once, but often I repeat the first 5 seconds. Sometimes I repeat them twice.

Then as B hits my ears, some part of me is judging how I'm reacting when hearing it.
Am I slightly disappointed? Then B is worse.
Am I confused? Then B is likely worse.
Am I elevated? Then B is better.

What I find funny is that often that very first impression of me judging my own reaction is correct. Listening several times rarely increases my accuracy.

[markiteight]

That's funny. I've never felt that I have a preference for either A or B. I feel that when listening to A, I set an emotional baseline. Usually it's enough to hear it once, but often I repeat the first 5 seconds. Sometimes I repeat them twice.

That phrase "emotional baseline" is really interesting. Can you elaborate on that?

Then as B hits my ears, some part of me is judging how I'm reacting when hearing it.
Am I slightly disappointed? Then B is worse.

This is where the problems start, at least for me. I have found that gauging disappointment leads to a trap practically every time. The worse option is often more impressive from a hi-fi standpoint. The more musical option can sound a bit dull in direct comparison and so that initial impression can be one of disappointment.

Am I confused? Then B is likely worse.

So that's my next natural step. If first impressions are unreliable, shift focus to musical understanding. Is it easier to follow the tune and understand the music? Then it's better, right? Not necessarily! This wasn't a reliable solution either. It seems that certain hi-fi aspects can give the impression of making it easier to follow a tune, but at the expense of the music as a whole. This is the trap that I fall into most often. After I was reminded of silent repetition I have fallen for this trap less often, but it still gets me once in a while.

Am I elevated? Then B is better.

Can you elaborate more on this too? This seems like it might be the key I'm missing.

What I find funny is that often that very first impression of me judging my own reaction is correct. Listening several times rarely increases my accuracy.

I too find that repeated comparisons rarely offer any benefit, in fact they often add to the confusion. I still do it though, "just to make sure." I need to learn to trust my instincts more.

[lejonklou]

That's funny. I've never felt that I have a preference for either A or B. I feel that when listening to A, I set an emotional baseline. Usually it's enough to hear it once, but often I repeat the first 5 seconds. Sometimes I repeat them twice.

That phrase "emotional baseline" is really interesting. Can you elaborate on that?

With emotional baseline I mean that I listen carefully to the song, analyze what everyone is doing and try to follow and understand what they're doing musically. I take it all in and try to connect. This level of understanding and connection is the baseline.

Then as B hits my ears, some part of me is judging how I'm reacting when hearing it.
Am I slightly disappointed? Then B is worse.

This is where the problems start, at least for me. I have found that gauging disappointment leads to a trap practically every time. The worse option is often more impressive from a hi-fi standpoint. The more musical option can sound a bit dull in direct comparison and so that initial impression can be one of disappointment.

I think the key here is proper focus on what's happening. The Tune Method is about keeping an analytical focus on the music and how it develops, while simultaneously letting yourself be emotionally moved by it.

If you just react emotionally, without a proper focus on the musical details, you will get erratic results. Then you might prefer a sound that you're familiar with or you might prefer being surprised by an unfamiliar sound, as that can make you hear new details. Both are irrelevant and repeated listening will likely confirm this, as you keep changing your mind.

If you just listen analytically, you will be deaf to the musical aspects of every detail. This can lead you into preferring more detail (separated sounds) or into a preference for a general sound character (for instance warm and gentle on the ears). Or something else. A lot of audiophiles are in this territory and their systems are terribly boring to listen to.

Am I confused? Then B is likely worse.

So that's my next natural step. If first impressions are unreliable, shift focus to musical understanding. Is it easier to follow the tune and understand the music? Then it's better, right? Not necessarily! This wasn't a reliable solution either. It seems that certain hi-fi aspects can give the impression of making it easier to follow a tune, but at the expense of the music as a whole. This is the trap that I fall into most often. After I was reminded of silent repetition I have fallen for this trap less often, but it still gets me once in a while.

I know exactly what you mean. Again, I think the key is to get into a state where you react emotionally and understand what's happening and how it develops. At the same time! No shift of focus.

I have practiced getting into this mental state by repeatedly listening to the opening 10 seconds of a song that starts pretty much at once. For instance, I choose a song that I'm not too familiar with but has a deep groove that makes me want to dance (or at least move some body parts). Then I repeat this maybe 20 times.

During the first couple of times I focus just on how the groove hits me emotionally. I let it wash over me and just move my body to it. This is what an old forum member used to call "The dance method". Then I shift focus and for a couple of listens I try to figure out what the musicians are actually doing. Why is it so groovy? Oh, that drummer waits just a little on the last beat - and then that guitar replies with a clever rise in the pitch as the note fades - and then that singer begins just after the bass goes down. Every attack and decay adds a piece to the puzzle they're laying. Every subtle change of pitch adds a flavor.

Then I do both at once. I let myself by immersed and my body respond. I also analyze all those fine musical details that make up the groove. Repeat, repeat, don't fall for the temptation to listen to the whole song. Sometimes you will be more emotional and other times you will be more analytical. Practice being both at once.

[markiteight]

Thank you, Fredrik! I think you may have boosted my understanding of the tune method by several steps, as well as something tangible to practice. Brilliant!

Is this an exercise you do before every tuning session or only when you feel like you're not in the right frame of mind?

[lejonklou]

Thank you, Fredrik! I think you may have boosted my understanding of the tune method by several steps, as well as something tangible to practice. Brilliant!

Is this an exercise you do before every tuning session or only when you feel like you're not in the right frame of mind?

When you've reached the state where you can focus on the musical details and at the same time react emotionally, you can throw out a "mental anchor" by paying attention to your state of mind and how it feels. Then you can later instantly return to this state, without doing all those repetitions.

[ThomasOK]

In response to ThomasOK's request, here's some clips playing around with cable arrangement:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ra7duxexlfjw ... t.MOV?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/52s54c8klj630 ... c.MOV?dl=0

Another vote for clip 2, quite a lot better.

Yep, I definitely prefer the second clip as well.

[ThomasOK]

Of the clips by defender above I'm honestly not that happy with any of them. The phase change one I immediately disliked and felt it was easily the worst. But between the before and after clips I actually marginally prefer before. After seems a bit clearer but also seems less well joined together than before to the point where I'd rather listen to it. I think there is more that needs to happen here.

[Defender]

thank you Thomas yes there is still way to go thats why I am working my way through the things I can do. Currently torquing my bass drivers and as always there is helpful information found in the forum.
You stated in a post that for loudspeakers with metal bolts for bass drivers you expect the torque somewhere between 1.0 and 1.5Nm. I did already settled at 1.1Nm and than thought well till 1.5Nm its just 4 more steps so I tested those and settled at 1.4Nm which is much better than 1.1Nm ;)