Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote: 2020-02-07 19:35 The last clip (clip 2) from your latest set of clips Thomas is right up my alley. The sounds come together as one and creates a very real feeling when listening.
I enjoyed both but prefer clip 2 as well. I’m aware of listening to a hifi in a way I’m not on the other clip, although I suspect I wouldn’t feel that way if I only heard clip 1.

I enjoyed the music. Reminded me of a tense scene of foreboding in the Magnificent Seven or something like that. Probably doing it a disservice now.

There is a sense of underlying calmness about your system Tom that is different to other clips we hear, including mine, or YouTube hifi clips in general.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

Thanks for the kind comments, gentlemen. There is indeed a quality of freedom from stress and the ability to just let the music wash over you that is superior to anything I have experienced in my almost 50 years in the hobby and 42 years, this month, in the business. But knowing what I know about the system, what is on the horizon, and some ideas I have, I believe I might just be able to take it even a bit further.

By the way, Charlie1, that is one of my all time favorite guitar pieces, "Oh, Well" from the early Fleetwood Mac album Then Play On with Peter Green. It starts out with a fast paced section with these very amusing lyrics:

I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to

Now, when I talked to God, I knew He'd understand
He said, "Stick by my side and I'll be your guiding hand
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to"
Ooh, well

This is followed by a lovely, long, moody guitar and bass section with a few other instruments here and there. It is the latter part of this section that I used for this clip. Oh Well is often recognized by the single of the hard-charging first section that hit #2 in the UK in 1969, but the second half is the most beautiful part, stretching the piece to almost 9 minutes. I recommend enjoying Oh, Well in its entirety.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

you are lucky Thomas - its great to have wonderful equipment on one side and on the other side the capabilities to hear and optimize small things to make it even better - some people have either one or the other or none.

here is an example for clocking the platter - those positions are 5 minutes away

Position 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s5lgh0t7cu5qf ... 6.mov?dl=0

Position 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r96xaaz2run4j ... 8.mov?dl=0
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Great clips Defender. The second position gives a feeling of effortless music compared to the first one.
Defender wrote: 2020-02-08 11:39 you are lucky Thomas - its great to have wonderful equipment on one side and on the other side the capabilities to hear and optimize small things to make it even better - some people have either one or the other or none.
Yes you are right Defender but my point has been to show that even “cheap” equipment can be very enjoyable if set up the right way.

So, if one only has a small cheaper system and do not know exactly what to listen for this is the place where you can find the knowledge that will help you get music out of the hifi you own.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

beck wrote: 2020-02-08 12:02 Yes you are right Defender but my point has been to show that even “cheap” equipment can be very enjoyable if set up the right way.

So, if one only has a small cheaper system and do not know exactly what to listen for this is the place where you can find the knowledge that will help you get music out of the hifi you own.
we are not in disagreement - wonderful equipment does not mean it has to be expensive nor it means wonderful is not possible with affordable but right equipment. You made the best examples here.
But it somehow also shows the perception that many associate wonderful most of time also with higher price.
So thank you pointing that out.

Thank you for your feedback I was using position 2 for a long time than I played around and thought position 1 for some reasons better but I have to admit I sometimes still fall into traps.
... and sometimes its easier for me to decide with listening to the my own recorded clips compared to sitting in front of my system ... strange
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

It is not strange! It happens to all of us. :-)

Sometimes you have to distance yourself from your system to really hear what is going on and often other experienced peoples ears are needed to get there! :-)

And when we hear things differently (like I expect could happen with these clips) it is actually a good thing. We try each other out to really sharpen our perception of what we hear.


I have just removed non used speakers from my listening room and what a difference it makes! That is yet another great example of cheap improvements! :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

I prefer position 2 as well defender, for same reason as beck stated.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

thank you for reassuring me - I was hunting for a musicality which I had in memory and lost but changed other things like tracking weight and anti skating and couldn’t remember where I lost it.
It shows how important it is to be sure before you do the next step.
I need to be more structured with my changes.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2020-02-07 20:09 I absolutely agree, No1’s my favourite too. So, No1 it is then.

No1 was the Meicord and No2 the BJC.

I’d forgotten that I’d done an Ethernet cable test before, where everyone also preferred the Meicord, but on that occasion, the BJC wasn’t included.
Really? This is interesting!

Can you please share some details on the Meicord? Have neither heard nor seen one in real life.

I found an old test where you posted clips of Meicord and Microconnect. In room you preferred the Meicord, but it seems everyone thought the Microconnect clips were better. Those clips made me not investigate the Meicord any further.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

beck wrote: 2020-02-08 12:02 Great clips Defender. The second position gives a feeling of effortless music compared to the first one.
Defender wrote: 2020-02-08 11:39 you are lucky Thomas - its great to have wonderful equipment on one side and on the other side the capabilities to hear and optimize small things to make it even better - some people have either one or the other or none.
Yes you are right Defender but my point has been to show that even “cheap” equipment can be very enjoyable if set up the right way.

So, if one only has a small cheaper system and do not know exactly what to listen for this is the place where you can find the knowledge that will help you get music out of the hifi you own.
I do indeed consider myself very lucky for being able to amass such a wonderful system over time that I would never be able to afford had I to purchase it all at once. I am even luckier to be able to work at a vocation I truly enjoy and that I seem to have some talent for, and to be able to join forces with Fredrik Lejonklou who not only consistently makes the best electronics I have heard but is also just a genuinely nice guy.

I am certainly quite fond of being able to put together inexpensive (not cheap) equipment that makes a joyful noise. We just recently picked up Cambridge Audio and PSB speakers at our store, mainly to give us a bit lower entry level point. I can now put together a vinyl playback system using a Rega Planar 1, Cambridge AXA35 and a pair of PSB Alpha P5 speakers for just a touch over $1300 including some K20s. CD player instead is $100 less or upgrade to a Planar 2 and add $200, We also carry used gear so sometimes it's just an older turntable, receiver and speakers for $500 or $600. One of my favorites a while back, even though it is not quite budget, was a gentleman who stopped in and after some listening and discussion bought a Rega Planar 3/Elys2, Rega Apollo, Rega Brio and a pair of Dynaudio Evoke 20 bookshelfs. With some Linn Blacks and K20 he had a $5500ish system that would be quite hard to beat. This was for his office. He liked it so much he came back and got a Rega Apollo, Rega Elex-R and Dynaudio Evoke 50 floorstanders for his house (he moved the Planar 3 over), then a few months later bought the original system but with a Planar 2 as a wedding present for his son and daughter-in-law. It is fun to make people happy with reproduced music, and he is a musician with both drums and guitars in his living room!

I had hoped to get more comments on the last clip (defender didn't even tell me which one he liked), But since we are on the subject of inexpensive upgrades, I might as well spill the beans. The only difference between the last two clips is the power cable going to the KRadikal. Clip 1 is what had been the most musical cable I had found and is what my whole system has been wired up for some time, also used at the various Hi-Fi shows - the older Linn US AC cable made by Longwell. Clip 2 is the latest Lejonklou US AC cable made by Volex which he sent me to try out several months ago. I had them hooked to my Quads for months just to burn in (as AC cables actually don't make any difference on Quads). I then swapped them for another cable and compared the Linn Longwell and the Lejonklou Volex. I did it late at night and felt the Lejonklou was better but sent the clips blind to Fredrik as a double check. He heard the same small but definite improvement in the feel of the music and real quality of the instruments, which I also heard again on the clips. So I posted them up here and those who commented are hearing the same thing. So Lejonklou now has the best sounding US AC cable I have heard! And most of you know I have listened to a bunch. Fredrik is seeing if he can get a whole bunch of the same ones so we're hoping they haven't changed anything. I think I will be able to offer them for the same $40US that the latest (and also pretty good) Linn AC cables go for. I'd say that qualifies as a pretty inexpensive upgrade!

As you can imagine I am trying to get a few more from Fredrick ASAP and am already burning in two more so that I can have a full Lejonklou AC cable loom already burned in for the show.

I almost forgot, I also like clip 2 from defender, it seems more musical to me.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-02-08 00:31 By the way, Charlie1, that is one of my all time favorite guitar pieces, "Oh, Well" from the early Fleetwood Mac album Then Play On with Peter Green. It starts out with a fast paced section with these very amusing lyrics:

I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to

Now, when I talked to God, I knew He'd understand
He said, "Stick by my side and I'll be your guiding hand
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to"
Ooh, well

This is followed by a lovely, long, moody guitar and bass section with a few other instruments here and there. It is the latter part of this section that I used for this clip. Oh Well is often recognized by the single of the hard-charging first section that hit #2 in the UK in 1969, but the second half is the most beautiful part, stretching the piece to almost 9 minutes. I recommend enjoying Oh, Well in its entirety.
I must get 'Oh Well' on vinyl since I only have it on a best of CD - I suspect an abridged version. I was confused though cos I bought 'Then Play On' sometime last year and my copy doesn't have 'Oh Well' on it. Looking at Wiki, it appears to have been added to a revised version. Shame. Looking forward to hearing the whole track as you suggest :)
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-02-08 00:31 There is indeed a quality of freedom from stress and the ability to just let the music wash over you that is superior to anything I have experienced in my almost 50 years in the hobby and 42 years, this month, in the business.
It's hard to put my finger on. Maybe not the best analogy, but it's a bit like someone just turned off a buzzing florescent light that you'd got used to but are now glad to be rid of.
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-02-08 18:19 I had hoped to get more comments on the last clip (defender didn't even tell me which one he liked), But since we are on the subject of inexpensive upgrades, I might as well spill the beans. The only difference between the last two clips is the power cable going to the KRadikal. Clip 1 is what had been the most musical cable I had found and is what my whole system has been wired up for some time, also used at the various Hi-Fi shows - the older Linn US AC cable made by Longwell. Clip 2 is the latest Lejonklou US AC cable made by Volex which he sent me to try out several months ago. I had them hooked to my Quads for months just to burn in (as AC cables actually don't make any difference on Quads). I then swapped them for another cable and compared the Linn Longwell and the Lejonklou Volex. I did it late at night and felt the Lejonklou was better but sent the clips blind to Fredrik as a double check. He heard the same small but definite improvement in the feel of the music and real quality of the instruments, which I also heard again on the clips. So I posted them up here and those who commented are hearing the same thing. So Lejonklou now has the best sounding US AC cable I have heard! And most of you know I have listened to a bunch. Fredrik is seeing if he can get a whole bunch of the same ones so we're hoping they haven't changed anything. I think I will be able to offer them for the same $40US that the latest (and also pretty good) Linn AC cables go for. I'd say that qualifies as a pretty inexpensive upgrade!

As you can imagine I am trying to get a few more from Fredrick ASAP and am already burning in two more so that I can have a full Lejonklou AC cable loom already burned in for the show.
The Lejonklou cable seems like a bargain upgrade to me too!!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-02-08 17:36
Spannko wrote: 2020-02-07 20:09 I absolutely agree, No1’s my favourite too. So, No1 it is then.

No1 was the Meicord and No2 the BJC.

I’d forgotten that I’d done an Ethernet cable test before, where everyone also preferred the Meicord, but on that occasion, the BJC wasn’t included.
Really? This is interesting!

Can you please share some details on the Meicord? Have neither heard nor seen one in real life.

I found an old test where you posted clips of Meicord and Microconnect. In room you preferred the Meicord, but it seems everyone thought the Microconnect clips were better. Those clips made me not investigate the Meicord any further.
You’re right, there was a time when I agreed, and even put the Meicord’s up for sale. Fortunately, no one wanted to buy them, so I tried them again, but this time I really liked them again! I need to check, but I’ve a feeling that what happened was that I originally checked for direction, and when I moved house I just plugged them in the direction I remembered, but I think the Meicord text is applied after manufacture, and the text runs in different directions on each end, which I hadn’t noticed!

I did a second set of clips, which also included the MicroConnect’s, and this time everyone preferred the Meicord’s.

The Meicord’s are an UTP cable with a cross spacer down it’s length. One unique feature is that each cable end is slightly different, in order to keep the cable pairs as close together as possible, for as long as possible.


More info can be found here: http://meicord.de/index.php?id=dietechnologie&L=3

They sell for €84 plus shipping for a 3m length.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

I am sorry Thomas - I heard the first clip and asked myself if I am missing anything but I didnt. So I thought that is the one.
Than I heard the second clip and it was just better - it also felt louder to me.
I am a little hesitant to give my opinion the last times as I seem to fall into traps especially when I can hear more from the instruments but less of the musicians playing together I tend to go with where I hear more.

I cant believe thats the new power cable - didn't thought it could be so obvious
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

Defender wrote: 2020-02-08 11:39 you are lucky Thomas - its great to have wonderful equipment on one side and on the other side the capabilities to hear and optimize small things to make it even better - some people have either one or the other or none.

here is an example for clocking the platter - those positions are 5 minutes away

Position 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s5lgh0t7cu5qf ... 6.mov?dl=0

Position 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r96xaaz2run4j ... 8.mov?dl=0
I’ve just had a quick listen and prefer No1 ! I think my ears might be getting too old for all this malarkey!

I posted a clip to a bit of research not long ago which looked at the relationship between tune and inharmonicity, and if I understood it correctly, tune and harmonicity are related, and are both sides of the same coin, as it were. Recognising a well reproduced tune seems to be a conscious analysis, whereas harmonicity is something which is felt - it just feels right, or wrong in the case of an inharmonic reproduction. It’s surprising how many acoustic guitars don’t feel like a real guitar, even when the systems really clear and every note can be heard. Apparently, we all (with a few medical exceptions) have the ability to recognise both accurate tune and harmonicity, we just need to let go and let it happen. Admittedly, it’s really hard and I’m regularly seduced by the HiFi niceties!

However, on this occasion, I felt that clip 1 had a harmonicity which I felt wasn’t so apparent in clip 2

But! It’s Friday night and I’m currently enjoying a Portuguese red produced in Lisbon bought for me by my sister in law who lived in Lisbon for a while. So, who knows!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

I will call it a day and follow your example with an italien Baccanera Salento and hope Thomas foregives us both! :-)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by fatjulio »

Spannko wrote: 2020-02-06 17:53 Back to A-B tests.

Choose between 1 or 2 :-)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e72v7psb780 ... rscRa?dl=0
What length of cables are you using? Fredrik has the BJC best at 2.5m, and the Meicord doesn't come in that length it seems.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

well at least that would be an explanation why I struggle between the two. lets see what other have to say.

at least I can say I agree with all the others in enjoying the Meicord in your comparison more than than the BJC
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

beck wrote: 2020-02-08 21:01 I will call it a day and follow your example with an italien Baccanera Salento and hope Thomas foregives us both! :-)
Ha ha! Very funny beck!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

fatjulio wrote: 2020-02-08 21:13
Spannko wrote: 2020-02-06 17:53 Back to A-B tests.

Choose between 1 or 2 :-)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e72v7psb780 ... rscRa?dl=0
What length of cables are you using? Fredrik has the BJC best at 2.5m, and the Meicord doesn't come in that length it seems.
The bjc’s are 2.5m and the Meicord’s are 3m. I didn’t listen to lots of Meicord lengths, I took the easy way out and went for the nearest to Fredrik’s recommendation!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

Preferred the Meicord - :( because BJC would be an easy replacement/upgrade for my MicroConnects

Preferred platter position 2 for the easier musicality, but did feel there was a bit more of 'something' with 1. There are still 298 seconds to investigate if there are 5 mins between the two clocked positions... ;) - grateful to Tom for clocking my LP12. Grateful because I don't always trust my ears when I'm doing the tweaking, which brings me on to...

Tom's power cord comparo - I need to listen again as I thought both sounded good on my not-good-sounding laptop, and I struggled to pick a winner: 1 sounded good; 2 appeared to sound better, then I went back to 1 and it seemed to sound better than when I first listened... At least the Longwells sound almost as good ;) Are these Fredrick US power cords new and improved over those that came with the Monos?

Unfortunately no wine was 'harmed' in the formation of these listening impressions :/
Last edited by tokenbrit on 2020-02-09 19:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by fatjulio »

https://www.mcru.co.uk/product/meicord- ... rk-cables/ have the Meicord cables, a bit more expensive than directly from Meicord, but they do have a money back guarantee if you don't like it.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

@ThomasOK

I missed your cable clips, but having listened I agree that the new cable sounds fantastic. And to think that you were only powering your Radikal too! Like charlie1 said, it’s a great value, if not essential, upgrade.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Moving spare unused speakers out of the room (tv, 2 x trikan and computer).

Before: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s92e8qkm3kjkd ... 8.mov?dl=0

After: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qpn450q2m7zue ... 8.mov?dl=0
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Defender »

interesting - what was jumping into my face was that the voice sounded much cleaner and more emotional in the second clip
some kind of harshness is gone (was it one of your clips where I stated more musical but still kind of „hard“)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Small cable correction to the “After” clip:

New After: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s88srpq2rqo1l ... 3.mov?dl=0
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