Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

Nait 1 is still the boss
User avatar
Tendaberry
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 982
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry »

Why oh why did I ever sell my Nait 1???
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote: 2019-09-04 22:22They’re both obviously excellent, but I felt that the Nait 2 made a slightly better job of reproducing the naturalness of the accompaniment. In the first half of the song, there was little to choose between the way the guitar was coming over. Although, after repeated listening I began to develop a very slight preference for the Nait 2 - it seemed just a smidge more melodious. In the second half, when the piano took over, the Nait 2 seemed to reproduce the chords much more naturally. It was as if the pitch of each note could be heard, combining to make a beautifully natural chord. The Nait 1, in comparison, just seemed to be making the appropriate piano like sounds! OK, I’m possibly exaggerating the difference, cos in reality they’re both great amps, but I do feel that the Nait 2 is ever so slightly more musical.
I hear what you mean now about the piano. The 2 does have a nice warmer sound and does seem to flesh out some of the instruments better. I suppose I've always found the music easier to follow via the Nait 1 but it's not a massive difference over the 2. I might try with 2 with my Rosewood Kans sometime.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

I haven’t listened again, but because I’m a bit of a lone voice in the wilderness (:-), I’ve been wondering if I’ve been seduced by something in the sound which I’ve confused with enhanced musicality? Hopefully, time will tell.
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 975
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

Spannko wrote: 2019-09-05 22:02 I haven’t listened again, but because I’m a bit of a lone voice in the wilderness (:-), I’ve been wondering if I’ve been seduced by something in the sound which I’ve confused with enhanced musicality? Hopefully, time will tell.
FWIW, I too heard that and speculated about how they would both sound in the room. The Nait 1 is a brightly lit and straightforward choice for the voice, but the Nait 2 is making a better job of the other instruments. I suspect we may be up against the limitations of clips here...
The search for knowledge is not nourished by certainty, but by a radical distrust in certainty
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

As per request from member for another couple of clips with upbeat music. This starts with end of accoustic track before upbeat number.

System incl both amps powered on about 20mins...
N1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ahoddqfherrk ... 7.MOV?dl=0
N2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rkajvhmu8tier ... 5.MOV?dl=0

The Nait 2 is a bit like the Creek 4140 in that it boosts the bass a little which I quite like with stand mounts.

EDIT: Was this too loud for anyone? - I had the volume up quite high. It wasn't distorting in the room but perhaps it was too much for the phone...
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

No problem here! :-)
Playing cd’s…………
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Last edited by Charlie1 on 2019-09-07 16:13, edited 2 times in total.
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 975
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by David Neel »

Different, aren't they? I think I'll be in the minority here: although the N1 foot-taps better, I'm rather liking the N2.
The search for knowledge is not nourished by certainty, but by a radical distrust in certainty
User avatar
Tendaberry
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 982
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry »

I like the N1 better, the voice doesn't convince me on the N2.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

I'm all in on the N1. At the beginning I was thinking the N2 was pretty good too, but then the second track came in and everything seemed to flatten and fall apart. I just couldn't get into it like I got into the same track on the N1.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

N1 is more fleet (of foot)
N2 is more wood(en)
N1 is still the Mac (Daddy)

:)
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Ha!

...or maybe just a rumour
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

tokenbrit wrote: 2019-09-07 01:41 N1 is more fleet (of foot)
N2 is more wood(en)
N1 is still the Mac (Daddy)

:)
You do realize you worked awfully hard for that one, don't you? Sorry if I've taken the mick(ey) out of you.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

Didn't work hard at all - they come easy... Yep, they Don't Stop ;)
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

I really like the N1 + Kans. They have a synergy which makes them a joy to listen to. Very nice indeed. Thank you again charlie1
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

K9 stylus vs AT-VMN95ML stylus.

I recently fitted my last low hours K9 stylus. I need a long-term plan so I've got an AT-VMN95ML stylus to compare against.

Had a complete nightmare heart attack swapping K9s so these clips were recorded on different days - I'm not swapping them around again just for clips.

K9: https://www.dropbox.com/s/495ibkha29jia ... 6.MOV?dl=0
VMN95ML: https://www.dropbox.com/s/neti36yn8f114 ... 7.MOV?dl=0

The ATs ability to track inner grooves is a million miles better than the K9 and it does the HiFi stuff better. However, might as well just say now that I'm missing the musicality of the K9 although the AT is snappier which helps pep up some tracks. If I can't get used to this then I'll move up to an Adikt.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

Why did you pick the ML instead of the E?

Do you know whether the new models are in fact more musical than the old ones?

If you can find an old 95E stylus, it fits on the K9 body and might sound better than the VMN-95ML.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

I had an E before the K9 but found the inner groove distortion too much.
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Just as with my Klyde your K9 brings life into the music. It is hard to live without.....
Playing cd’s…………
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote: 2019-09-09 20:13 I had an E before the K9 but found the inner groove distortion too much.
I see. So the ML is better in that department, then.

Do you feel that the new VMN95ML is more musical than an old AT95E? What about the naked E in the new VMN line?
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

I didn't know there was a new E. The problem is that I would like to keep some of the hifi benefits of the ML and I can't see any improvements to the E really delivering those as well.

So I seem to be talking myself into an Adikt. This experience is reminding me of my attempts to find speakers more musical than Linn and it has never worked out. Not heard the models used by regular forum members here though.
User avatar
Ron The Mon
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 301
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit
Contact:

To E or Not to E...

Post by Ron The Mon »

Charlie1 wrote: 2019-09-09 20:13 I had an E before the K9 but found the inner groove distortion too much.
Charlie,
An ATN95E or VMN95E stylus?

I have been listening to many "AT95" comparisons over many past months and every comparison has surprised me with different results than I expected. I am still not finished as I purchased one of every variant styli in the new VMN95 series and have been doing long and short-term comparisons. I intended on starting a new thread here eventually as the new AT-VM95 series (and specifically the "E") is much better than their predecessors and better value, if you can believe that.

I haven't played records in several months as I've been away from my house but intend to record some of these comparisons as they are fascinating!

A few facts in the meantime;
1) The VMN95E stylus sounds better than the ATN95E in any body; including the K9.
2) The VM95 body sounds much better than the AT95E body.
3) Torque on the VM95 body is an incredibly small and sensitive degree! Setting the torque of the AT95, K9, and K5 bodies were easy. When properly torqued, the VM95 body is better sounding than a K9 body.
4) The newest AT-VMN95SH is the worst of the bunch!! Even compared to the conical!!!
5) I have found every AT95E and VM95 variant stylus sounds best at 1.5 grams and anti-skate just over 1.

Some unverified opinions in the meantime;
1) "End of side distortion" is pure hokum. I have never once ever heard it! I would appreciate you making a recording near the end of a record side and use two different styli to compare. I used Troika for 13 years all the while being being asked by audiophiles how I could stand its' "end of side distortion". I used Klydes for 14 years and told I was deaf as it was a terrible sounding cartridge, and on top of that it had dreadful "end of side distortion". I've been listening to an LP12/Radikal for over six years with an AT95E and everyone who hears it says it's one of the best hi-fis ever and can't believe it's a $50 cartridge. Yet online I read how terrible it must sound because of the horrific "end of side distortion".
2) I believe the main reasons the new ATM95 body sounds so good is two-fold; it (combined with hardware) is lighter, causing the tonearm counterweight to be placed closer to the pivot point. Second, is the new generator sounds better. I was sure the higher output would result in worse sound; the opposite is true.
3) Why do audiophiles immediately jump to "microlinear" and "Shibata", etc. etc. without evidence it sounds better? Isn't the fitting of the diamond, and cantilever type and material more important?!? I will eventually provide Playground fodder here, but the "E" sounds best and has better longevity, making it the best value.

I just saw Fredrik's post and your response while typing. My advice is buy a complete new AT-VM95E and compare that to a K9 with anything...

...and buy a Richmont Sturtevant CAL36/4...

...and play around with tracking/anti-skate values after 27 hours of break-in.

Also, for the price and running costs, it would be cheaper and better sounding to sell the Ittok and get an Ekos. An Ittok/Adikt costs more than an Ekos/AT-VM95E after just one stylus replacement. I haven't been keeping up on this new project of yours but a better sub-chassis or motor supply would be an even better value and improve "end of side distortion" to an even further degree.

I did listen to your K9 stylus vs. AT-VMNML. How many hours on the AT? On that demo I'd choose the K9. But I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Ron The Mon
AT-VM95 Fan
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for an excellent post Ron!

Your findings regarding the choice of tip matches my experiences with the old AT-95's. E always seemed the most musical and I have also never really experienced the dreaded end-of-side distortion. Sometimes MM carts can give a nasty sound, but it hasn't necessarily been on the last tracks of the album, rather anywhere on the record.

I haven't yet listened to any of the new VMN models, but as the old 95E was such a steal and I've recommended it to so many vinyl enthusiasts, for decades now, I am genuinely interested and happy to hear that you find the new design even better.

Can I make this a separate thread? I think it deserves it.
User avatar
Ron The Mon
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 301
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit
Contact:

Roof

Post by Ron The Mon »

lejonklou wrote: 2019-09-10 00:47 I haven't yet listened to any of the new VMN models, but as the old 95E was such a steal and I've recommended it to so many vinyl enthusiasts, for decades now, I am genuinely interested and happy to hear that you find the new design even better.

Can I make this a separate thread? I think it deserves it.
Fredrik,
This is a popular thread and I won't have much more time to respond anytime soon. Charlie1 is on a cheapie binge right now and he will do this topic more justice in the short-term. This may encourage someone else to start another thread. If not, I'll be back. There is no better hi-fi product ever sold in the history of music reproduction for a cheaper price than the AT95E.

It blows my mind the (now year old) AT-VM95 is better and the same price; and no one seems to have noticed.

I've thrown the ball. Let the dog run with it.

Ron The Mon
Post Reply