Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-22 10:22

I love it! :-)

When you go all in you REALLY go all in!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-22 10:42

haha

M109s have settled in nicely with the SDS in living room. More importantly they match the flooring :)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bwrl8eikcxjj ... 3.MOV?dl=0

Also just switched from Google Play (MP3) to Qobuz (CD quality)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry » 2019-05-22 10:58

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-22 10:18
Incidentally, I think I've found a way to combine the benefits of all my Linn speakers...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4g6mmm7kdat1 ... n.png?dl=0
Is that the new Kanri? ;-)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-22 11:07

Yes but don't tell anyone. Linn has spent the past 5 years developing it.

Speaking of next gen Komri, I seem to recall they were developing a speaker about 10 years ago to replace the 350. A 3-box affair like Naim used to offer but you didn't have to buy the 3rd box that provided the deep bass. Anyway, it got ditched for some reason.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2019-05-22 11:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Lego » 2019-05-22 11:08

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-20 18:24
Linn Kan Rosewood Mark 1 with Scanspeak D2008 tweeter vs Teak Mark 1 with Hiquphon tweeter.

Both with sticky out terminals and same KEF bass/mid.

Track #1
Scanspeak: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0mjyxknhfsvyv ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Hiquphon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z4oe3jw7csd4n ... 5.MOV?dl=0

Track #2
Scanspeak: https://www.dropbox.com/s/94r00qdb2uvow ... 2.MOV?dl=0
Hiquphon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j9b11eodmjetd ... 7.MOV?dl=0

Track #3
Scanspeak: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tlq0653rabhhl ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Hiquphon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hy869wbekb87e ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Don't know how much use the Rosewood ones have had in recent times. I did play them for an hour before recording. I sense they could do with some loosening up though.
It's a bit disconcerting how different they are, I prefer the Rosewoods
I know that tune

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Lego » 2019-05-22 11:09

Tendaberry wrote:
2019-05-22 10:58
Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-22 10:18
Incidentally, I think I've found a way to combine the benefits of all my Linn speakers...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4g6mmm7kdat1 ... n.png?dl=0
Is that the new Kanri? ;-)
Brix would do that
I know that tune

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-22 15:13

I did this for my own benefit but just thought I'd share in case of interest.

Wanted to rule out the different K20 runs cos x1 Teak Kan is hard wired to some older K20.

These are all single speaker with the same K20 run. Also red LED Nait back from repair so that's in play as well.

Rosewood Kan: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r34dtenhkuvr9 ... 4.MOV?dl=0
Teak Kan: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vp6d8apw6mmmo ... 5.MOV?dl=0
Kan 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5rswkgd91z8c ... 6.MOV?dl=0
Tukan: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zkcl369fszwxg ... 7.MOV?dl=0

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-05-22 16:45

Lego wrote:
2019-05-22 11:08
Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-20 18:24
Linn Kan Rosewood Mark 1 with Scanspeak D2008 tweeter vs Teak Mark 1 with Hiquphon tweeter.

Both with sticky out terminals and same KEF bass/mid.

Track #1
Scanspeak: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0mjyxknhfsvyv ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Hiquphon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z4oe3jw7csd4n ... 5.MOV?dl=0

Track #2
Scanspeak: https://www.dropbox.com/s/94r00qdb2uvow ... 2.MOV?dl=0
Hiquphon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j9b11eodmjetd ... 7.MOV?dl=0

Track #3
Scanspeak: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tlq0653rabhhl ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Hiquphon: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hy869wbekb87e ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Don't know how much use the Rosewood ones have had in recent times. I did play them for an hour before recording. I sense they could do with some loosening up though.
It's a bit disconcerting how different they are, I prefer the Rosewoods
Agree to both comments. I find the Teaks a bit aggressive and they don't move as well. I actually find the Marvin Gaye piece to swing better on the Rosewood Kans as well.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-05-22 16:47

So which is better? The MajiKomponentiKatan or the KeilidhKansTukan?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-05-22 16:56

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-22 15:13
I did this for my own benefit but just thought I'd share in case of interest.

Wanted to rule out the different K20 runs cos x1 Teak Kan is hard wired to some older K20.

These are all single speaker with the same K20 run. Also red LED Nait back from repair so that's in play as well.

Rosewood Kan: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r34dtenhkuvr9 ... 4.MOV?dl=0
Teak Kan: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vp6d8apw6mmmo ... 5.MOV?dl=0
Kan 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5rswkgd91z8c ... 6.MOV?dl=0
Tukan: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zkcl369fszwxg ... 7.MOV?dl=0
This is closer with the four different units but I still prefer the Rosewood Kan 1s. Interestingly the Teak Kan is my least favorite. The Kan 2 does some nice stuff but I still feel the music better on the Rosewood. Tukan isn't bad either. Not sure where I would rank Tukan vs. Kan 2 but both in the middle.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-22 18:29

My most to least preferred: Rosewood Kan, Tukan, Kan 2 and Teak Kan last.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by markiteight » 2019-05-22 19:39

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-22 10:18
Incidentally, I think I've found a way to combine the benefits of all my Linn speakers...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4g6mmm7kdat1 ... n.png?dl=0
LOL. Wow! I think I see Linn's next product announcement: K2400. "Twenty four individual runs of speaker cable conveniently divided into 12 color coded pairs (we had to invent some new colors to make this work) and packaged in a compact, elegant, and easy to conceal 20cm diameter jacket."

I can just see your poor little Creek staring up at those imposing towers with a look of fear in its tone controls, whimpering a feeble, "help."

To which your freshly serviced Nait 1 responds, "don't look at me!"

On to the business:
Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-22 15:13
I did this for my own benefit but just thought I'd share in case of interest.

Wanted to rule out the different K20 runs cos x1 Teak Kan is hard wired to some older K20.

These are all single speaker with the same K20 run. Also red LED Nait back from repair so that's in play as well.

Rosewood Kan: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r34dtenhkuvr9 ... 4.MOV?dl=0
Teak Kan: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vp6d8apw6mmmo ... 5.MOV?dl=0
Kan 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5rswkgd91z8c ... 6.MOV?dl=0
Tukan: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zkcl369fszwxg ... 7.MOV?dl=0
I struggle a bit with this one. I hear Mr. Gaye's heart and soul the most through the rosewood Kans, but the bluesy, Motowney funk comes across best via the Tukans. Also there's more tone and color to the first cymbal crash through the Tukans, rather than just a splash of white noise. I'm going to go out on a limb and rank them as follows (best to worst):

Tukan
Rosewood Kan
Kan2
Teakan

All the Kans sound a bit shouty, and no matter how musical they are I just don't like being shouted at. That being said, I still want to try a pair. Vintage '86, '87, or '88 seem to be the ones to get.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-23 05:57

As mentioned by charlie1 and markiteight there is something with the rosewood Kans ability to “boogie” that also to me seems a little stiff.

Now seing all your speakers on display charlie1 I would like to hear your own comments telling us which speakers you are going to keep and what you like about them? Which speakers are you going to sell and why?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-23 07:25

beck wrote:
2019-05-23 05:57
Now seing all your speakers on display charlie1 I would like to hear your own comments telling us which speakers you are going to keep and what you like about them? Which speakers are you going to sell and why?
Morning. Thanks for all the comments everyone.

I think I've been most disappointed by the kustone Kan IIs, partly due to reasonably high expectation. I bought a non-kustone pair back in 89/90 and my memory is of a more engaging speaker. I will sell this pair at some point.

I've been most pleasantly surprised by the Tukans. They still sound a little boxy / compressed compared to Katans and M109s but they seem to boogie along really well and I've enjoyed their company. These are a bargain at £100-£150 and I'll definitely keep them.

I think I'll have to hang onto both pairs of Kan 1 for the time being but will sell at least the Teak pair eventually, maybe both. I can't explain why I respond to music the way I do but sometimes I find the Teak Kans flow better. I totally understand Thomas saying they are aggressive and I can't listen to them myself for long periods. I don't think I'll bother getting an even earlier pair because the early sealant is liable to have deteriorated by now and I'm not interested in restoration projects. I will probably pick up a late palr of mark 1s though, in order to hear the change in KEF mid/bass driver. Don't get me wrong, I'm very pleased with the Rosewood pair but I was expecting them to be even more fun than the Teak pair. Your description of them being a little 'stiff' seems about right to me.

As for the others, the Katans are keepers cos they are so versatile - I enjoy them on new/old/digital/analogue systems and they can play all day without fatigue. The M109s sound good on the Sneaky, as did the Katans to be fair. I think M109s suit a modern digital player much more than an 80s analogue player with 80s amps. The M140s are up for sale. The Keilidhs are keepers in case I miss deep bass and get funny ideas about buying expensive floor standers again - I'll just connect them up for a bit and get over it (hopefully). I could sell the K104s but not sure they are worth that much and the bother. I will probably sell the Larcs sooner or later and replace with some form of Linn stand mount - got plenty of Kan II stands!! :(

I think that's about it. I'm hoping 1 or 2 pairs will find their way into small systems for my offspring but they seem to like their phones blurting out noise all on their own - maybe I've put them off hifi!!
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2019-05-23 08:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-23 07:27

markiteight wrote:
2019-05-22 19:39
To which your freshly serviced Nait 1 responds, "don't look at me!"
LOL! Yes, it has zero grunt.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-24 11:05

The one and only thing I really value in a hifi system is it’s ability to carry the emotion of the music across to the listener. I would not use my time and effort on this hobby if the above was not possible.

Setup is very important (as shown here many times). The clips below are two different speaker setups. The first is an older setup that gave me lovely sound but could not bring the message across to me. The last is my setup as it is now. Here I can “feel” the music and the AT together with the rest of the system gives me what I am searching for. There is (to me) a thin line between failure and succes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kdtb1y4h1zbwo ... 5.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fr7d13lsoqqw4 ... 7.mov?dl=0

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-05-24 13:16

That’s a really good example. The second clips makes the first sound disjointed to my ears, although it took the second clip to make it obvious.

I would only quibble a bit and say ‘setup is often important’.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-24 13:46

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-24 13:16
That’s a really good example. The second clips makes the first sound disjointed to my ears, although it took the second clip to make it obvious.

I would only quibble a bit and say ‘setup is often important’.
I agree. With the Klyde it was never a question of searching for the emotion in the recording. With the AT I had to search for it to find it.

But with the music my AT delivers now I can easily see myself buying it again.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-05-25 16:29

beck wrote:
2019-05-24 13:46
Charlie1 wrote:
2019-05-24 13:16
That’s a really good example. The second clips makes the first sound disjointed to my ears, although it took the second clip to make it obvious.

I would only quibble a bit and say ‘setup is often important’.
I agree. With the Klyde it was never a question of searching for the emotion in the recording. With the AT I had to search for it to find it.

But with the music my AT delivers now I can easily see myself buying it again.
First off, I agree that clip 2 is easily more musical than clip 1.

As to whether setup is very important or often important, I do see both sides of that question. One thing I have noticed from my years in the industry is that setup is often used as an excuse. "You didn't really hear what those speakers (that turntable, this cartridge, etc.) could do because you didn't have them set up right." "I have heard he ZAV system at the show sound much better but the room wasn't very good." I find this last one amusing as so many manufacturers blame the hotel rooms for poor sound. Yet in the four shows I have done, three with Fredrik there, we have yet to fail in getting a truly musical sound out of the system - a sound that very many commented was the most musical they heard there. But that does indicate that setup is very important (although it also indicates that there is a lot of junk Hi-Fi out there). Overall I have to agree that setup is very important if you really want to get the best out of any system. One of the reasons our systems sounded so good is that Fredrik puts so much attention to detail into the design and construction of all of his electronics, another is the precision I put into the setup of turntable/arm/cartridge combinations and a third is the care and time we both put into getting the whole system working harmoniously, from lengths, connectors, solder and soldering temperature on the speaker cables to positioning of speakers and equipment racks. It all adds up to really superb music reproduction.

But the other side of the coin also ties into using setup as an excuse, and here is where the thought "setup is often important" comes into play, and fits with charlie1s comment and becks agreement. Another thing I have noticed over the years is the differences in our initial reactions to products, particularly speakers, as room positioning can make big differences with them. Sometimes we get a new speaker in for audition (sometimes from a new brand, other times a new model from a brand we carry) and we always start out just setting them in one of our rooms in a position that generally sounds pretty good with most speakers and letting them burn in. With some speakers we aren't thrilled so we do a more precise setup of position. Often we still aren't thrilled. With other speakers we stick them in the same place to burn in and immediately notice that they sound really good. After burn in we can tune them to get it even better but they sound good from the beginning.

This just happened with the new Dynaudio Evoke 20 speaker, a $2000 bookshelf in their new Evoke series, which is a step above their entry level. They were put in our Studio B with Simaudio Moon electronics and a Bluesound streamer. I was out in the lobby and thought "That sounds really good, what is it?" and went in to find the 20s. All of us here thought they were quite good just dropped where they were and several customers commented on how good they sounded as well. I haven't done any in-depth listening to them so I'm not saying how they fare compared to something like M109s, I'm just saying they made a very good initial impression. I have noticed that the speakers that sound good just dropped in place tend to be the ones that we find are good long term, and the ones that are very finicky just never end up being satisfying. Every speaker I have ended up owning sounded just plain good stuck somewhere reasonable in the room, and often in less than ideal setups at dealers, generally before I even knew where they would perform the best.

So you can have musical sound with good equipment without going crazy over setup. But paying attention to all the details of setup will always make it even more musical as long as you use the proper system to set it up.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-05-27 06:46

Returning to Charlie1’s speaker towers I can say that overall I am a Tukan/Katan man when it comes to all the speakers I have heard via clips from Charlie1.
Not having heard the last Kan1 model I can say that despite their qualities they play the music with some drawbacks I cannot live with.
Tukan/Katan seem to hit me the right way letting me relax. No wonder I like my Espeks.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2019-06-28 13:01

It's Friday.

Friday means bake off.

1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/qgzabigtqjjxz ... 2.MOV?dl=0
2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/1o2e00mryzs7k ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Nr 2. was quite cheap so I thought sod it.

Music inspired by beck's recent LP purchase.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2019-06-28 14:15

Musically the Rega is very satisfying as is the Sondek plus more.

Are the earlier Level 42 records from the 80’s worth anything? I saw them cheap at the record store too. :-)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-06-28 14:30

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-06-28 13:01
Friday means bake off...

Nr 2. was quite cheap so I thought sod it.
RP3 builds dreams but doesn't (quite) fulfill them - could be better (should be better?) - given a lesson by Linn :D

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Matteo » 2019-06-28 14:34

beck wrote:
2019-06-28 14:15
Are the earlier Level 42 records from the 80’s worth anything?
Yes
LP12/Tramp2/Kore/Akito 2b/ARadikal/Adikt/Slipsik 7-ND5 XS 2-AK/1-A2200-M109 [Silver-K200]

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Ianw » 2019-06-28 14:55

Charlie1 wrote:
2019-06-28 13:01
It's Friday.

Friday means bake off.

1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/qgzabigtqjjxz ... 2.MOV?dl=0
2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/1o2e00mryzs7k ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Nr 2. was quite cheap so I thought sod it.

Music inspired by beck's recent LP purchase.

Might just be my bias but the first clip is totally superior to the second one. Even with mobile phone mic etc. The vocals on #1 are far clearer but having said that, #2 still carries a tune.
Great Bass player BTW.

Ian

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