Playground for practical listening exercises

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

OK, thanks cortina.
beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Without much fuss the “playground” has now turned past 100.000 posts. Is that a record in here?

I think it is cause for celebration:

https://youtu.be/3GwjfUFyY6M

:-)
Playing cd’s…………
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Tendaberry
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry »

It says 1152 posts here...
And probably 1153 after mine
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Tendaberry wrote:It says 1152 posts here...
And probably 1153 after mine
Sorry. It is views!......... :-)
Playing cd’s…………
Charlie1
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Might be of interest to folks, especially because Naim has always claimed that the speaker cable forms part of the amp.

3m NAC A5: https://www.dropbox.com/s/q3nwwdsrq0eu9 ... 2.MOV?dl=0
2.48m K400: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kwpi6gniwwc9b ... 5.MOV?dl=0

I know Naim state 3.5m is required these days but reading back to old forum posts from Julian Vereker it seems 3m was fine about 20 years ago. The NAC A5 is second hand so should be run in.
u252agz
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

Much prefer the K400s.

Not my style of music - but definitely more accessible with K 400s.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Matteo
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Matteo »

NAC A5 better bass but too harsh so less musical

M.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Music Lover »

Charlie1 wrote:Might be of interest to folks, especially because Naim has always claimed that the speaker cable forms part of the amp.

3m NAC A5: https://www.dropbox.com/s/q3nwwdsrq0eu9 ... 2.MOV?dl=0
2.48m K400: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kwpi6gniwwc9b ... 5.MOV?dl=0

I know Naim state 3.5m is required these days but reading back to old forum posts from Julian Vereker it seems 3m was fine about 20 years ago. The NAC A5 is second hand so should be run in.
NAC is only good after Naim power amps, and best at 7-8 meters, based on feedback from people I trust (=using Tune Dem and owning LP12)

2.48m K200 is best after Linn and Lejonklou amps.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

u252agz wrote:Not my style of music
I enjoy it but my wife hates it! Most of the album is not like that though.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Matteo wrote:NAC A5 better bass but too harsh
I hadn't found it harsh in the room but perhaps that will change now you've mentioned it.

One thing you don't get on the clips, there is a LOT more bass with the NAC A5. It easily puts back everything that the 2db cut takes out. If the cut had not been made, then I think it would be overwhelming in my room.

I find the music makes more sense with the K400, but then the NAC A5 better controls the bass. There is also some added sense of ease with the Naim cable - probably not the best track for that to come across.

I'm gonna try some more sensitive PMC transmission line speakers this week (90db). They will probably better control the bass anyway.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz »

Which amp /speakers are you using? I presume source is your LP12
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Yep, LP12 and still using the Nait, hence I thought it was interesting based on what Naim has always said about their amps and speaker cable:

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/JV.TXT
Date: November 25, 1999 02:49 AM
Author: julian vereker
Subject: culled from the vaults

Date: 7-Mar-99 10:39
Author: julian vereker
Subject: bi-wire

. . .

In the manual, we advise that you should use Naim loudspeaker cable
with our amps. It is part of the amplifier output circuit which
expects a certain inductance and a very low capacitance (see below),
if you bi-wire (even with NACA5) you double the capacitance that the
amp 'sees' and this can cause a problem.

If a crossover is designed for bi-wiring it is probable that it will
sound better used that way (all things being equal), if a crossover is
designed for single wire it will sound better used this way - BUT the
crossover designed and used for single wire will sound better than the
bi-wire design however it is used. There are number of interactions
between the cables and the filters (in the crossover) and the
mechanical parts (drivers) that can lead to unexpected resonances that
can turn out being destructive.

If you Naim amp is destroyed by using unsuitable cables, it is a clear
failure mode and is not normally covered by warranty.

julian

PS pulled from the passed:

Date: 26-Aug-98 02:07
Author: julian vereker
Subject: Cables Again

Please can I draw your attention to the following notes:

****Ed's Note: MANY CABLES WILL 'WORK' IN PARTICULAR SYSTEMS, BUT IF
THE SPECS ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM NACA5, THEN PROBLEMS MAY OCCUR WITH
CERTAIN SPEAKERS****

FOR INFO THE RELEVANT SPECS ARE:

1.3 - 1.5microHenries per metre (Loop)

MAX 20picoFarads per metre

About 25milliOhms per meter (loop)

MIN Length 3 metres

**ED**

and: refering to Litz type high capacitance cables.

*****ED's Note: DO NOT USE THESE TYPES OF CABLES WITH NAIM POWER AMPS
IF YOU WISH TO HAVE NAIM'S WARRANTY - PLEASE SEE YOUR OWNERS
MANUAL*****
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Paaf »

Very difficult for me. Even if the second has its merits, it also sounds a bit dull in a way.. I think I need to vote on the first one.

Do I need to dodge now?
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck »

Paaf wrote:Very difficult for me. Even if the second has its merits, it also sounds a bit dull in a way.. I think I need to vote on the first one.

Do I need to dodge now?
Not at all. It just means that you are a grown up that can make up your own mind! :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit »

Paaf wrote:Very difficult for me. Even if the second has its merits, it also sounds a bit dull in a way.. I think I need to vote on the first one.

Do I need to dodge now?
No need to dodge - I felt the same thing about 2, but I also felt that 1 sounded a bit bright. Despite 2 being a bit dull, especially in comparison to 1, I thought that 2 was a bit more musical.

The "dull" may be due to the amp not being up to the job of driving the speakers. More efficient speakers may help the amp & K400... not sure that more efficient speakers would tone down the NACA5 tho' :/
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK »

The sound is so different it is hard to make a good judgement but in the end clip 1 hurts my head whereas I can listen to 2 without a problem. 1 is harsh and aggressive and listening to 2 right after it makes 2 sound a bit soft and dull. But once my ears get attuned to 2 it seems more balanced and easier to follow. So a qualified pick for 2 but I'm with your wife on the music!
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2018-11-01 17:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

On that short clip, I felt most of the difference was sound related. Musically, I didn’t hear a big difference. They seemed to have similar rhythmic qualities and I found it quite difficult to follow a tune on both - not due to a poor tune playing ability, but due to the cacophonous nature of the track!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by anthony »

Turned clip 1 off half way, listened to clip 2 whole way.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks everyone.

I do miss the tunefulness and better boogie of the K400. The NAC A5 has something else to offer, which seems to make the K400 sound a bit 'matter of fact'.

The key factor is that I could happily keep the Majik 140s now, using the NAC A5. The sound is no longer distracting at times (diffuse bass in particular) and I don't hear the harshness that many of you have picked up on in the clips. And I don't feel the amp is struggling at higher volume, so could abandon my search for more efficient speakers.

I'll have to see what the PMCs are like, with each cable.

It might be interesting and fun at times but I will be glad to return my focus on buying new records. Playing around with HiFi kit and exploring various systems could easily be a full time job if you had the time and money.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko »

With these clips, it’s much easier to hear what’s going on. The NAC5 makes Macca hunt for the right pitch but he never quite gets there. The K400/2 allows him to sing more in tune. On the EC track, her voice sounds more soulful with the K400/2.

This is a bit surprising because like ML I’d expect the Nait to work better with the Naim cable since the cable was always intended to be a part of the amplifiers circuit.

Thanks charlie1, very interesting!
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by anthony »

Spannko wrote:With these clips, it’s much easier to hear what’s going on. The NAC5 makes Macca hunt for the right pitch but he never quite gets there. The K400/2 allows him to sing more in tune. On the EC track, her voice sounds more soulful with the K400/2.

This is a bit surprising because like ML I’d expect the Nait to work better with the Naim cable since the cable was always intended to be a part of the amplifiers circuit.

Thanks charlie1, very interesting!
In the 80s when I worked for Linn naim dealers nac a5 worked well with linn speakers, kan Sara and isobariks. I believe the synergy was lost from the kaber era onwards.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 »

Options with the Nait seem to be:
1.) Accept that only the NAC A5 cable is correctly voiced/designed for the amp, and forego some musicality for a better balanced sound
2.) Take the K400 benefits and accept that the system will not sound quite right at times
3.) Hope to find a tuneful speaker that conceils, or does not highlight, the Nait/K400 mismatch (realistically, if looking at efficient Linn floorstanders then that's either the Ninka or Keilidh)
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou »

I don't think anyone can claim that Nait 1 and NAC A5 were made for each other.

Naim NAC A4: 1981
Linn K20: ? (copy of NAC A4)
Naim Nait: 1983
Naim Nait 2: 1988
Naim NAC A5: 1989

So what you might be looking for in this compensatory quest is NAC A4 or Linn K20.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Tendaberry »

The sloppy timing of the NACA 5 ruins it for me, especially on the EC track. I for one couldn't live with that.
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