Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Efraim roots
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Efraim roots » 2017-12-30 14:55

Here is a comparison with the same track 33.3rpm vs 45rpm. Track was chosen because it was the best example in my collection of the same track cut at different speed. Both 12" discs released about the same time, one a double LP 33.3rpm one a 45rpm 12" with 2 chosen tracks per side taken from the LP material. This track is the first of each record side both on 33.3rpm LP and 45rpm 12".

Recording is 'in room' from my coffee table. A quite rugged non-serviced original swedish sold Naim Nait 2 (will go back to factory within time for sure) and Naim IBLs with a very good Linn LP12.

What do you think about the difference?

33.3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/muhredshcgdfn ... 7.wav?dl=0
45
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zqxu07dibhrh ... 6.wav?dl=0
the players of instruments shall be there..

beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2017-12-30 18:17

This is really, really interesting.

At my first listen without analysing I prefered the first clip. Then after many times back and forth I realise that the intro is quite revealing regarding the musical timing between tamborine and (far back) background drum. In the second clip it becomes more of a mess.
In the first clip one can detect a call and response between the two with a true musical timing present.

The second clip (45rpm) can appear more revealing but I will always end up listening to first clip. Very interesting indeed. (Reminds me of my preference for the 2200 clip from largo).

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Efraim roots » 2017-12-30 20:06

Thanks. Yes is about time to investigate the difference in musical quality between 33.3 and 45 rpm. I found a different artist with the same record label, also a LP and 12" 45 rpm with two selected songs from the LP. The songs are the same extended versions (8-9min) both on 33.3 and 45 rpm, cut and pressed at the same factory about the same time. Now recorded from tape out.

33.3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n77tp1k92r2r5 ... 9.wav?dl=0

45
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l9tehpg46373q ... 8.wav?dl=0

Not so easy I think but I'll remain happy that I have loads of 45s.
the players of instruments shall be there..

beck
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2017-12-30 20:32

No doubt in my mind. 33.3 is more convincing with the groove.

I have just listened to my own system with what I have in my collection and the result is the same. I end up listening to my 33.3 records.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2017-12-30 23:01

Yep, I am definitely enjoying the 33 versions of both of the tracks more. They have more groove, more dynamics, better bass and just make you want to move more, Somehow the 45 versions sound a bit boring and dead in comparison even if sounding at times a bit more edgy. The tune is just not there as much.

This is not new to me as Fredrik has mentioned. When I get the time I will share some clips that are quite interesting in this regard.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2017-12-31 11:28

Much prefer 33rpm on the second clip. I struggle with the first clip - I like them both.

I’ve also been intrigued and surprised by this. Yesterday, I played U2 ‘Angel of Harlem’ and much prefer the album track. I also compared PG’s ‘Sledgehammer’ and wasn’t so sure, but my copy of ‘So’ was produced a few years after initial release cos I originally bought it on cassette.

It makes sense of something too. I have a few 45s that, whilst sounding great, have always left me slightly underwhelmed, especially my promo copy of Talk Talk ‘It’s My Life’. Looking forward to playing the album version which I’ve not touched in years.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2017-12-31 12:12

Just compared U2 'Pride' on UK early press LP (can't work out exact pressing) vs low matrix UK 2nd press 12" (12 IS 202 A - 1U - 1 - 1 - 1, black label). I compared several times and couldn't really pick a favourite. At one point I thought the 33rpm conveyed more emotion but I don't trust my abilities enough to be sure. The 12" single is a real belter though. I also have the 12" of 'The Unforgettable Fire' title track from the same LP but I've never got on with it. It's a later pressing and never sounded 'right' to my ears - void of the mood/feeling that the song should convey, that is even present at times on the radio.

Also compared U2 'Where the Streets Have No Name' on UK early press LP (again, can't work out exactly how early the pressing is) vs UK 12" (later pressing) and prefer the album. It was difficult cos the LP squeezes 26-27 mins of music onto each side and the 12" sounds very different and much clearer, but the 12" also seems to lack the same level of drive and focus on the music when compared to the LP.

Not sure if this is more about vinyl age/production or speed. Bare in mind bands like U2 were constantly churning out their 12" singles catalogue between mid-80s and early-90s. I vividly remember shopping in HMV London in the late 80s for 12" singles from their 'October' and 'War' albums that date back to 82/83. So there is a massive age difference and potential performance difference between their 12" singles (and albums of course, but we are all familiar with that side).

It's all good fun though.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-01-01 13:03

Understandably, a bit of an 80s fest, but this morning I compared 'Change' by Tears for Fears, 'Sign of the Times' by Prince, 'Dignity' by Deacon Blue and 'China Girl' and 'Modern Love' by Bowie. They all seemed more enjoyable on LP. Despite the better sound on 12", something seemed musically broken, by comparison.

I don't know the release history like the U2 albums and didn't bother checking. I bought 'Sign of the Times' and 'The Hurting' brand new in the late-80s and very much doubt either would have been first pressings by that point. Everything else was bought second hand.

Going back a bit, 'Roxanne' 12" appears to be an original pressing and my copy of 'Outlands d'Amour' certainly isn't. The LP probably nudged it but they are close, a bit like 'Pride'.

Lastly, 'Go Your Own Way' 12" US promo vs US 1st pressing LP (bought sealed with original stickers). Again, the 12" has something not quite right which I am surprised I'd never noticed before. I think it perhaps is something rhythmic related (as picked up by other) than any obvious reduction in tunefulness. It sounds stretched, pulled apart and not quite so connected. I bought this for 'Silver Springs' and it was a bit of a bargain so still a good purchase.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2018-01-01 13:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2018-01-01 13:10

Charlie1 wrote:This morning I compared 'Change' by Tears for Fears, 'Sign of the Times' by Prince, 'Dignity' by Deacon Blue and 'China Girl' and 'Modern Love' by Bowie. They all seemed more enjoyable on LP. Despite the better sound on 12", something seemed musically broken, by comparison.

I don't know the release history like the U2 albums and didn't bother checking. I bought 'Sign of the Times' and 'The Hurting' brand new in the late-80s and very much doubt either would have been first pressings by that point. Everything else was bought second hand.
“Musically broken” is a good way of decribing it. Maybe the increased stress on the cutting head when making a 45 rpm record is less ideal for bringing the music across unharmed? We can take nothing for granted. We always have to listen and compare.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by largo » 2018-01-01 20:13

Hey Guys,

I've got something new for you today. Digital Volume Control of my Akurate DSM/1 vs. Sagatun as a Pre-Amp.

I recorded two clips this time, as the last time the song I chose seemed sub-optimal. I hope any of those will work for you.

I will PM the solution upon reply.

Track 1:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mxk3fyx412470ir/xc.MOV
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vn03r0wk1glvscl/yc.MOV

Track 2:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nja4tyxnmbpqzhh/xd.MOV
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ffn8ti6irn700yf/yd.MOV

I mixed up everything - so do not expect the names of the files to mean anything or help you in any way in your decisioning.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-01-01 22:58

Had a quick listen and I enjoyed the first clip of each track the most.

I really struggled at first. The Dire Straits song sounded really sluggish via both clips. This was via my iPhone 4S. I then listened on the Windows laptop and it was so much better. Didn't realise how poor that iPhone was - had assumed it was better than that.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by largo » 2018-01-01 23:03

Hey Charlie,

as I had a similar discussion with Beck and I don't want to confuse things:

The the tracks are mixed up - meaning xc and xd are different setups so are yc and yd. I guess it would have been easier if I just did one song after all.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-01-01 23:06

beck wrote:“We can take nothing for granted. We always have to listen and compare.
Very true, although if I'm expecting a specific outcome then I sometimes don't question things properly.

I compared 'Red Rain' this evening, also off 'So'. This is similar to the 'Unforgettable Fire' in that it's easy for the song to amount to nothing, which is pretty much what the 12" delivers. Whereas, the LP version reminds me why I really like that track. Thanks guys for passing this onto the forum. I feel like something has clicked into place in this crazy and misleading world of HiFi.

EDIT Compared INXS 'Never Tear Us Apart' and 'New Sensation' from their 'Kick' album. I preferred the former 12" but not the latter one. Can't see any pattern here. Maybe it just comes down to who mastered it and the care taken. The LP is always going to be a higher priority.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2018-01-02 23:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-01-01 23:11

largo wrote:Hey Charlie,

as I had a similar discussion with Beck and I don't want to confuse things:

The the tracks are mixed up - meaning xc and xd are different setups so are yc and yd. I guess it would have been easier if I just did one song after all.
Well, I originally preferred yd to xd, but then convinced myself otherwise, so if I understand what you're saying, then I'll go for xc and yd :)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-01-03 19:12

I took clips of the INXS tracks and think I got 'Never Tear Us Apart' wrong and it too is more enjoyable on the LP. The synth at the start sounds like a slightly different pitch to me, but decide for yourselves:

Never Tear Us Apart
33rpm LP: https://www.dropbox.com/s/untdskh8pxe73 ... m.MOV?dl=0
45rpm 12": https://www.dropbox.com/s/uj9bds5mu1vsw ... m.MOV?dl=0

New Sensation
33rpm LP: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bq5a08e7w6cak ... m.MOV?dl=0
45rpm 12": https://www.dropbox.com/s/3mah8amahyrwj ... m.MOV?dl=0

The second clip sounds like the lead guitar is recorded underwater but it's not really like that in the room :)

Unfortunately, I didn't quite match the volume levels despite trying. Is that likely to tip the balance though?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2018-01-03 21:16

Great clips. With 33.3 rpm you are surfing on a wave but with 45 rpm a certain stiffness sets in making the music less human like and more mechanical.
When in doubt follow your nose! With 33.3 rpm I just want to lay down and float away to a place far away. :-)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-01-03 23:01

I'm with Charlie1 on this xc and yd. I had a harder time with the first track. It had been so long since I heard it I almost thought you were playing the 45 at 33 because of the slow opening. But the xc was more enjoyable and natural sounding. On the second track the yd definitely let me into the music more, there was just something disjointed about xd.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by largo » 2018-01-04 00:13

Here is one more for you guys.

KRDSM/1 with DVC vs. KRDSM/1 & Sagatun

In no particular order, as always:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8zqjxqgcl287gxf/xe.MOV
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v375o6d1aisprvk/ye.MOV

This comparison was very different to me (much clearer differences), than comparing with the ADSM/1 DVC vs. Sagatun. Sadly the ADSM is gone, so I couldn't throw it in the mix again.

Let me know what you think!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-01-04 00:23

'xe' for me :) Even the twinkly bit at the beginning has a melody to it that seems lacking on the other clip.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by largo » 2018-01-04 00:27

Hey Charlie, just out of curiosity - how do you feel about the difference between those vs. the ADSM samples? Are there clearer differences, was it easier to spot them?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-01-04 00:57

Yes, I felt it was easier. There are about 5 different devices in the household though. This time I used the Macbook. Maybe it was that, or maybe just my mood. Maybe the song. Or maybe the ADSM was a particularly good one and the KRDSM is the opposite.

I think you at least need latest Catalyst KDSM to put up against a good analogue pre-amp like the Sagatun - not that I've compared myself. I have a friend with Catalyst KDSM but he cannot be bothered to compare against his KK1 again since last time it was so awful (pre-Catalyst). I occasionally ask if he's re-tested but he just thinks it will be a waste of his time again.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2018-01-04 04:46

Agree: xc & yd, and xe ... and 33 1/3

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by paolo » 2018-01-04 14:20

For me yc, xd, xe are clearly better. Bigger difference is with timing.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2018-01-04 16:24

I have had a really difficult time with all largo`s clips. When used to listening to a sondek I have difficulty choosing what kind of musically related “faults” I can live with. :-)
If I had to choose I think I would follow Charlie1 but I do not think that I could live with any of the setups long term. No offence intended largo. Digital is just not for me in it`s present form. We all have different ears and expectations.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2018-01-04 17:05

beck wrote:I have had a really difficult time with all largo`s clips... No offence intended largo.
Agreed but for a different reason - I found the volume a bit quiet, and the clarity a bit muffled compared with others on here, to get what I felt was a good handle on the differences...

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