Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 631
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Lego » 2016-06-07 13:43

Charlie1 wrote:Certainly sounds good to me Leo. I should get more KJ music - I enjoyed that. Nice looking room too and a great vinyl collection you have there.

My eldest is asking for a CD player. I think she had something compact, pink and no doubt terrible sounding in mind but this is certainly food for thought and excellent value.

And a good job on the Lego ship - don't pretend it's not your work! :)
Thanks Charlie,tho' my lego days are well over..well so my kids keep telling me.I'm tempted to keep ps1 as my wife doesnt want to faff around with tablets to play music and none of us are prepared to pay get laser in her Classik fixed.
I think its the mid range dominance that makes it easy to listen to and to my surprise low listening fatigue and a lot warmer sounding than my Lp12, for someone that isnt into the high cost of getting a good sound out digital it works for me.
It felt like a lament for the Ninka's as an ex has given me first refusal on her Isobariks..be careful what you wish for :0)
I know that tune

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3249
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-06-07 20:18

lejonklou wrote:Ethernet-over-Mains OFF is much better than on. Big difference. I find that when it's on, things tighten up, in a stiff way. When off, there's a relaxed and intelligent flow in the music.
ThomasOK wrote:I definitely don't like what the EoM does to the music - it appears to muddle things and takes away the fun of the piece.
So I finally got my ear in on this. I've been really diligent turning off the EoM when listening but on a spur of the moment decided to play a tune whilst the kids were in the bath. I thought, "This isn't right. I don't like it, it seems frenetic and tense and not like it was earlier." Then the penny dropped that the EoM was still on. I was really quite chuffed to finally hear what all you guys noticed in the clips.

Not sure my wife will be so happy. I've been getting frustrated sighs and growls when forgetting to switch them back on. She asked why the other day and I told her it was because my stereo sounds much better. She looked me in the eye and slightly shook her head like I belong in the mental home for HiFi fruitcakes. I can't say I blame her though.

It does make me wonder what other household appliances are worth disconnecting. Any suggestions anyone? Has anyone else tried turning off their EoM units?

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2853
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2016-06-07 20:54

Everything except the Hi-Fi? ;-)
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

User avatar
rowlandhills
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 575
Joined: 2008-01-27 19:25
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by rowlandhills » 2016-06-07 21:01

Sounds to me like you need to bite the bullet and install some cat5 (possibly external) and get rid of your EoM devices completely!
KRDSM, Tundra to 242s
Silvers, K400, Hutter rack

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2853
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2016-06-07 23:46

rowlandhills wrote:Sounds to me like you need to bite the bullet and install some cat5 (possibly external) and get rid of your EoM devices completely!
Agreed!
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

u252agz
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 492
Joined: 2013-10-03 12:44
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz » 2016-06-08 08:49

It may even improve the sound.

When I switched my kitchen system from EOM to external CAt 5 - the sneaky / Ninkas improved markedly.

It can be a hassle having this done (and external may be easier than internal) - but in my case, definitely worth a morning of inconvenience.
KDS2/Sagatun Tundra Monos /242s /LP12 Kore-KRad-Ekos SE/Slip 7

Sneaky/RP3/Slip 6.1/ Boazu/ Komp110

Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 631
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Lego » 2016-06-08 11:28

Not sure how level of mains noise influences tune dem.I remember hiring a a device from Russ Andrews which allowed you to listen to noise in the mains ie you'd hear lots of interference when mains was so called noisy.I'm sure an AM radio not tuned into a station could do the same thing :0)
Anyway adding Lingo created a lot of interference and plugging in the kairn made the device silent.I went over to listen Kims which turned out to be deadly silent.I then unplugged her microwave and noise came back ..curiouser and curiouser..Her Classik/Kans combo always sounded good in that flat..although I didnt listen with microwave removed .
I know that tune

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3249
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-06-08 22:37

ThomasOK wrote:Everything except the Hi-Fi? ;-)
Haha, yes that is true enough.
rowlandhills wrote:Sounds to me like you need to bite the bullet and install some cat5 (possibly external) and get rid of your EoM devices completely!
Yes, you're probably right. Or maybe a wireless bridge.
u252agz wrote:When I switched my kitchen system from EOM to external CAt 5 - the sneaky / Ninkas improved markedly.

It can be a hassle having this done (and external may be easier than internal) - but in my case, definitely worth a morning of inconvenience.
Thanks. A friend emailed me today having seen this thread and said he couldn't believe I was still using them. But I don't recall very much being said about them on the forums over recent years. Perhaps I simply missed the memo.
Lego wrote:I remember hiring a a device from Russ Andrews which allowed you to listen to noise in the mains ie you'd hear lots of interference when mains was so called noisy.I'm sure an AM radio not tuned into a station could do the same thing :0)
Anyway adding Lingo created a lot of interference and plugging in the kairn made the device silent.I went over to listen Kims which turned out to be deadly silent.I then unplugged her microwave and noise came back ..curiouser and curiouser..Her Classik/Kans combo always sounded good in that flat..although I didnt listen with microwave removed .
Maybe that's why the ring main is better than the spur - i.e. there's a device like a microwave that's connected somewhere in the house that's helping.

tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1065
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2016-06-09 00:04

Who's going to post clips with microwave on & off? Will there be a search for the most musical microwave and would that be a nuke off rather than a bake off?? :)

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1635
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-06-09 05:27

lejonklou wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:It's amazing how I kidded myself that the system was OK and it must be me. I had thought that I'm getting old and music didn't do as much for me as it used to but now I know this isn't true at all. I can't thank everyone enough.
What you're saying here applies not just to you, but to a lot of people. Many of the I-used-to-be-such-an-enthusiast-but-I've-grown-older 's I've spoken to have tried the latest and greatest digital systems. So it's certainly not due to the system! It's probably age. Yeah.

What details have you changed exactly, Charlie, to end up with this kind of improvement? Could you sum it up?
I quate the above because I think it is something we should all keep in the back of our mind when "upgrading" and because my post get stuck in the outbox at the moment. Can someone help me, please! :-)

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3249
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-06-09 09:47

Fredrik suggested that I try putting the 140 grills back because his 109s had been better that way. For me, the 140s are much more tuneful with the grills back on - surprisingly so - and will be staying but here's a couple of clips if anyone is interested, and thank you Fredrik!

Grills Off: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6yvvy0so64hx8 ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Grills On: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1uhsak4egijc5 ... 1.MOV?dl=0
tokenbrit wrote:Who's going to post clips with microwave on & off? Will there be a search for the most musical microwave and would that be a nuke off rather than a bake off?? :)
Fortunately we have two microwave ovens for a genuine bake off :) I'm easy, I can either video the microwave or LP12 spinning. I wonder if there should be anything 'in' the microwave? Mmm..

Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1018
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Spannko » 2016-06-09 10:35

Talking about things spinning to music reminded me of this:

https://youtu.be/jUzGF401vLc

Enjoy :)

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1635
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-06-09 11:02

Your vote counts Charlie1. I can live with both setups (with and without grilles). I can hear the music with grilles on being presented more as one sound but I actually prefer grilles off. Even if it might be less musical I find it more honest to the recording. Still, I am not trust worthy when it comes to this kind of comparison.

Great clips by the way!

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4729
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2016-06-09 13:03

beck wrote:I quate the above because I think it is something we should all keep in the back of our mind when "upgrading" and because my post get stuck in the outbox at the moment. Can someone help me, please! :-)
As you put a smiley at the end, I wasn't sure if you were joking or actually asking for help. If you are having a problem, please read the second post here:

http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopi ... 993#p25993

u252agz
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 492
Joined: 2013-10-03 12:44
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz » 2016-06-09 13:17

I definitely prefer Grilles on.

It does sound good with the Grllles off - but with them back on - much better .

Really Nice recording and I do get the impression that these clips have been getting better and better over the weeks with all the tweaks .
KDS2/Sagatun Tundra Monos /242s /LP12 Kore-KRad-Ekos SE/Slip 7

Sneaky/RP3/Slip 6.1/ Boazu/ Komp110

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3249
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-06-09 13:35

I agree with yourself and Beck that the sound is much better with them off - more direct, clean and open. But like you, I find the music better with them on.
u252agz wrote:Really Nice recording and I do get the impression that these clips have been getting better and better over the weeks with all the tweaks .
Thanks u252agz. Tracey Chapman has been playing some great music this morning. I feel that the system is not really involved in the process anymore, if that makes sense. I know that it is and the speakers in particular will be adding their own signature but that's how it comes across now thanks to you guys.

Anyway, enough of my system. What about someone else having a go?

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1635
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-06-10 08:24

I would like to say "Thank you" once again to Charlie1 for making all the clips he has made displaying what small changes can do to the performance of a system. Without your contribution we would not have come this far learning a lot about how to listen to and judge the differences we can hear.
Being able to display our doubts and sharing our thoughts like in this tread is vital for us all to learn more about what makes or breaks a hifi systems ability to play music.
Charlie1 wrote:
Anyway, enough of my system. What about someone else having a go?

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3249
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-06-13 09:59

I'm just glad it's been useful to other members.
beck wrote:we would not have come this far learning a lot about how to listen to and judge the differences we can hear.
I've certainly learned a lot more about the limits of my tune dem abilities and need to be wary of that. It kind of undermines the saying, 'Let your ears decide', since I've learned that my ears and judgement is not reliable, especially regarding clips but also in front of my system. Although I hope my abilities have improved a little since this thread began. Certainly reading thoughts on 'why' members feel one clip is better than another has provided a useful insight into what others listen out for.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1635
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-06-17 17:14

A simple question: Find the most tuneful clip?

Links removed.

What has been changed will be revealed later! :-)
Last edited by beck on 2016-06-21 11:25, edited 1 time in total.

Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 3249
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-06-17 17:21

Much prefer 1322

ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2853
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2016-06-17 19:27

I prefer 1322 as well.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1635
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-06-17 20:40

It is quite amazing to me that the change between the two clips above has lead to almost total understanding of the pitch relations in previously difficult records. Here is an example that you have heard before but now the pitch of the bass synth makes sense!

link removed

I also prefer clip 1322. To make it I abandoned my previous setup mode for my Ekos and only used my Project Stylus Gauge to get 1.75 at the tip of my Klyde and set bias to 1.75. I can now enjoy almost all of my former difficult records "getting" the pitch relations. My Ekos tracking force dial ended on 1.32!!!
Last edited by beck on 2016-06-19 19:32, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4729
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2016-06-17 21:01

Sorry, haven't listened to any clips yet.

But my question is what your stylus gauge says when you set the dial to 0. In other words: Is the arm balanced with the counterweight?

beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1635
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-06-17 21:24

I checked the balance at 0 and the arm floated. I Checked the gauge with my dealer and set it up as recommended and calibrated it before use. This is me setting up my Ekos to play:

link removed
Last edited by beck on 2016-06-19 19:32, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4729
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2016-06-17 22:15

Ok!

Then your arm is amazingly inaccurate. I've never bought a scale, because I go by ear and don't fully trust the dial setting. But I never start at 1.0 and go up from there. Apparently that's sometimes needed. Or buy a scale.

Post Reply