Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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donuk
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by donuk » 2016-04-09 20:54

I know I mentioned this before, and yes it is all good fun, and yes it is a playground, but I really do question the value of poor quality needle drops.
Look at it this way. All sound reproduction equipment has its faults. Everything tarnishes reality. Sometimes it is possible to build a system where the faults of one component go some way to appearing to correct faults in something else in the chain. Perhaps simply by obscuring the faults.
When I listen to these examples I just hear poor quality hifi of different flavours. Something that sounds preferable on my computer may sound quite different in a good system. It could be that one needle drop has, say, a limited transient response, or a muted treble response. By the time it has been recorded and digitised, the process of doing so may go some way to ameliorate a fault that would be very evident in the original system.
Yes, fun to do and compare experiences. But a reliable way of assessing musicality of a system. No. A bit like judging an art collection in near darkness.
Just some good natured thoughts...

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz » 2016-04-09 21:17

The most striking thing for me is the consistency between the forum members for virtually all of the clips - and as becks says, suggests most people are giving priority to the same things.

I find this very reassuring and comforting.

It explains why, for the last two years, I have been able to successfully take advice from the Forum without the painful and not wholly reliable process of listening to dealer demos ( with two exceptions in the UK that I am aware of)

Tundra 1.2 to Monos , and then to Tundra Mono 2s ; AK/1 to Sagatun Monos and then Sagatun Mono 2 s have all been done like this, and I have been very happy with all of them.

Come to think of it RP3 to Majik LP12 also done the same way and KDS/1 to KDS/2.

Finding people who value the same things in music, have far better ears then me, and share their thoughts ( for free) on the Forum is just great.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-04-09 21:36

I would be a little worried if I were buying equipment from a man who's methods I didn't believe in! :-)

But more to the point: I have learned through my life that when someone say that they can hear something they are usually right about it. If it is of importance to me is another story.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-04-09 22:42

Hi Don and Ozzzy. I've found it useful (and fun). I think my system sounds better already so for me it's working. I agree with Fredrik that so long as the clips are good enough to tell better or worse then it doesn't really matter how bad they sound. I admit there is a question mark over consistency but I'd never keep to something that didn't work for me, even if everyone else agreed it was the best option when listening via the clips.

Some comparisons are just not worth bothering everyone with. For example, I thought I might do a video 'with' and 'without' Skeets under my 140s this week but it was so clear to me that Skeets are more tuneful that there was no point. Yet some comparisons I've struggled with over the years and it's been great to have feedback from forum members that share the same preference for a tuneful system.

Hopefully we can iron out the inconsistencies. Why not have a go :)

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by John » 2016-04-10 16:00

You guys should learn how to record using Audacity and line outputs, it would be more enjoyable and revealing of the differences.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by rowlandhills » 2016-04-10 18:43

John wrote:You guys should learn how to record using Audacity and line outputs, it would be more enjoyable and revealing of the differences.
Depends whether you're trying to record the effects of power amps, speakers, cables etc. rather than just changes to the source...
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-04-10 19:43

This is a valid discussion but I think we should move it to another tread! Can Lejonklou/Moderater do it?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2016-04-10 19:47

donuk wrote:Sometimes it is possible to build a system where the faults of one component go some way to appearing to correct faults in something else in the chain. Perhaps simply by obscuring the faults.
This can happen but it's rare.
donuk wrote:When I listen to these examples I just hear poor quality hifi of different flavours. Something that sounds preferable on my computer may sound quite different in a good system. It could be that one needle drop has, say, a limited transient response, or a muted treble response. By the time it has been recorded and digitised, the process of doing so may go some way to ameliorate a fault that would be very evident in the original system.
You are missing one vital element: We are using the Tune Method when comparing. That means ignoring sound, treble response and transient response and only focusing on the musical message and answering the question "Is this better or worse than the previous clip?". Without the Tune Method, these clips are completely meaningless, because as you pointed out, the original sound is nothing like how the recording sounds.
donuk wrote:But a reliable way of assessing musicality of a system. No. A bit like judging an art collection in near darkness.
There is no Tune Method for judging art. That makes all the difference.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2016-04-10 20:09

beck wrote:I have learned through my life that when someone say that they can hear something they are usually right about it. If it is of importance to me is another story.
I agree with this! People are nearly always right when they say they can hear something.

During my years in retail, the first half of the 90's, I learned that customers who were not completely satisfied with their system always had a solid reason. Quite a few were unsure and said things like "I might be imagining this, but...". And it was never their imagination. As soon as I heard their system, I could sense the problem they had described. Finding and fixing that problem was (and is) another matter. Sometimes it's easy and sometimes hard. But the customer is always right!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-04-12 10:48

What have I learned until now?

U252agz and I do listen almost for the exact same thing. Togetherness of tone.

Charlie1 and I hear the same things but sometimes end up choosing slightly different. You like hearing each line of music clearly more than I do. I go for the togetherness of tone.

I seldom disagree with what Thomas10 and Lejonklou hear so not bad at all!

I have listened to systems I would normally not have a chance to listen to at all and I am convinced that Lejonklou is making products that are in line with what I would like to listen to.

I think the people mentioned above value some of the same things when listening to recorded music.

This is just my opinion. Feel free to comment!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-04-13 09:52

Not sure I'd sum up my preferences like that but I can see why you think that and in some ways it is correct based on the results.

It's a useful thread to come back to when a member wants some feedback on something they're not too sure about.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Music Lover » 2016-04-13 12:36

Installed dropbox and here we go...
Many nice clips in this thread, but obviously I had to pick this one to respond to.
This is no contest Thomas!
JBL is a lot more tuneful. Now they sound strange but give them some hard beating (full blast) 24/7 for some weeks and they will be great also sound-wise. It's rather strange but even now 3months after receiving them, they improve. In all aspects, musicality, sound (even details) and bass extension/power.
Still missing the deepest bass though...but let's see in about 6months time how much they have loosen up :)
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-04-13 12:56

To Music Lover: Are you using them as they are built from the factory or have you done something else to them?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Music Lover » 2016-04-13 15:13

beck wrote:To Music Lover: Are you using them as they are built from the factory or have you done something else to them?
Nothing yet. Have them on 35cm piles of books, two under each speaker. Not very stable, I can rock them a few cm's bak/forth.
Going to start modifying when I get the Linnofil superstands, to be able to better hear each tweak making the modification work easier. Fredrik took delivery of his stands the other week.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-04-13 16:04

Music Lover wrote:
beck wrote:To Music Lover: Are you using them as they are built from the factory or have you done something else to them?
Nothing yet. Have them on 35cm piles of books, two under each speaker. Not very stable, I can rock them a few cm's bak/forth.
Going to start modifying when I get the Linnofil superstands, to be able to better hear each tweak making the modification work easier. Fredrik took delivery of his stands the other week.
You mentioned on the Linn forum you still miss Komri's. What can the JBLs do that helps take your mind off that?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Music Lover » 2016-04-13 20:01

Awesome deep powerful bass!
And 3D...the 3677 have super great 2D, same as Komri, but limited depth. On the other hand nothing come close to the 3D in Komri so little unfair.
And I really liked that Komri was huge :)
3677 could be 3 time bigger.
Big speakers look serious business!

But I hope a "not so small" JBL sub going to address this :)
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by matthias » 2016-04-13 20:37

Music Lover,
is there something the 3677 do better than Komris?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2016-04-13 21:27

3677 does most things better than Komri, which in my opinion are overrated.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by Music Lover » 2016-04-14 14:05

matthias wrote:Music Lover,
is there something the 3677 do better than Komris?
Everything except the deepest bass, as I have stated in the JBL thread. Please read more there.
I miss the deep bass every day. And in every tune.
You should know however that after living with active Bricks, Keltik and Komri, I have rather special requirements regarding deep bass performance.
I'm pretty sure "normal" persons going to find the deep bass in 3677 very satisfactory.

The 3D isn't important for me at all.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by ThomasOK » 2016-04-16 17:50

The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-04-16 18:58

Using my musician ear I hear both clips as being "in tune" but the second clip has a clearly (ha,ha) better SQ. Very nice piece of music indeed!

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by lejonklou » 2016-04-17 01:08

I really want clips intended for comparison to start at exactly the same position in time in the musical piece. I want to hear the same notes and beats both times.

The second clip is quite a bit more magic. I find the flutter in the treble to be mostly flutter in the first clip, while in the second it adds to the whole.

Curious about what we're comparing...

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by tokenbrit » 2016-04-17 02:27

ThomasOK wrote:OK, here are a couple more files. Let's see what people think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t6tv758g0spd3 ... M.mov?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dkfoigtwa95en ... M.mov?dl=0
Did you change the cart in the 2nd clip? (Linn Kandid for K9 ;)
Not sure why some think that the woofer doesn't go low enough with the 3677s :)

PS Uphorik vs Slipsik 6?

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by matthias » 2016-04-17 06:21

The tension in the music is more apparent in the second clip.

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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by u252agz » 2016-04-17 12:53

First clip sounds quite good but I prefer the second - by some margin.

Better flow and coherence - and as a bonus nicer sounds

Does everyone play with blue lights on Tundras by the way?
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