Playground for practical listening exercices

General HiFi discussion, using the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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beck
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Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-03-24 13:26

One thing leads to another and in the time to come I intend to make recordings that exemplify how effective the Tune Dem tool is when evaluating anything related to ones hifi system.

Even equipment that is not exactly producing "in tune" music can be rectified to a certain degree using Tune Dem.

Anyone is allowed to come up with recordings related to this topic. I have already some good ones in the pipeline. One showing the difference you hear when turning the power plug around. Let's see if we can hear a difference!

For those who cannot wait exercises can be found in the "Back to Black" tread and the "Sharing the sound of our systems" tread among others.

All this in an effort to educate each other to better understand what to listen for when seeking the best from our systems.
Last edited by beck on 2016-03-28 22:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playground for practical listening exercices

Post by beck » 2016-03-24 18:48

I am now ready with my first example. This is two recordings of "Let 'Em In" by Wings. The only difference is that I have rotated the power plug from my CD-player 180 degrees in one of the clips!

Find the most tuneful clip!

Happy hunting

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Last edited by beck on 2016-04-09 12:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-03-24 21:02

It's annoying because I had a clear 'first impression' and then got distracted and went back to it and wasn't sure which it was. Now I keep listening and they start sounding more and more the same. The more I listen the less I can hear them apart. However, I slightly prefer 1155 with what little difference I now hear.

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by lejonklou » 2016-03-24 21:21

Great initiative, beck!

I love doing these comparisons and I know there are people out there who are trying to understand what we're talking about. The best way by far to learn is on a live demo, but the second best way just might be this.

I will listen as soon as I can.

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by tokenbrit » 2016-03-24 21:59

I didn't look at the filenames to avoid influence, but I agree with Charlie. I had the benefit of not getting distracted and think there's more than a little difference: I found it noticeable from 35 sec where the singing joins the repeated bass note... well, they join in one, but not in the other.

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck » 2016-03-24 22:02

To be fair Charlie1 this one is very difficult as we are in CD "out of tune" land trying to get closer to "in tune" land. My CD-player is not the most tuneful machine so that makes it even more difficult and playing the clips can differ when your internet connection is unstable!

If 1 is easy and 10 is very difficult I guess this exercise is an 8 or 9!

My best advise would be to listen to the pianos opening chords and relate them to the piano bas notes and the bass guitar. What clip makes the best and most natural connection between the two.

And finally: the clip that makes your brain work the hardest when listening to create musical sense of it all is the least natural!
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by tokenbrit » 2016-03-24 22:35

I think I can hear what you're advising Beck but, for me, the monotonous bass note is more irritating in the first clip - there's better (more tuneful?) interplay with & around that note in the second clip such that it's not so nagging.

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck » 2016-03-24 22:48

I am not saying anything about what clip is most tuneful as I strictly speaking am investigating myself so no right or wrong here. The most interesting thing about these clips is if most of us in here prefer the one or the other.

As I said before: We are in "out of tune" land here and maybe touching the limit of what is possible to make meaningful sense of. Let's see how it turns out.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-03-24 23:46

beck wrote:My best advise would be to listen to the pianos opening chords and relate them to the piano bas notes and the bass guitar. What clip makes the best and most natural connection between the two.
Had a fresh listen. I'm gonna swap to 1153. 1155 seems a bit more ploddy - if that's a real word.

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Music at Home » 2016-03-25 00:08

Fascinating. Thanks for posting this Beck. I'm really surprised that such a minor change is easy to hear from an iPad recording played back on my laptop's in-built speakers. I prefer the second clip by the way. I have a few changes coming up to my system (starting with a swap of the hard-drive of my MacMini to an SSD drive*). You've inspired me to make some before and after recordings.

* My source is a Mac Mini running Audirvarna, to a Chord 2Qute DAC

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck » 2016-03-25 00:28

Glad to hear it and thank you for listening!

It is important that the recordings you make are made of the sound coming out of your speakers into your room (like my clips above) to make it possible for us to evaluate the differences using Tune Dem.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-03-25 13:36

OK, LP12 mat one way up and then flipped over the other side.

Two tracks, a rock track to entice Music Lover to play and then a Fredrik favourite. I did two cos the rock track is quite straight-forward and I thought any differences might not come across very clearly.

I've really enjoyed doing this. It's very interesting for me knowing which is which. Ordinarily you're switching things over and it all takes time but here I can just flick between the two files as much as I want and soak up the differences.

If you guys find the difference noticeable then I might see what you think of Kikkin-first vs Radikal-first on my mains strip.

Flip Your Twig (Mat one side up):
#1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/k1eoaavyphamc ... 1.MOV?dl=0
#2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fmt0gqu2cmsxx ... 2.MOV?dl=0

Flip Your Wig (Mat other side up):
#1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5uyu554an2tjn ... 1.MOV?dl=0
#2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/zll9ebotddftv ... 2.MOV?dl=0

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by lejonklou » 2016-03-25 15:01

In the first two clips from beck, I find the first one (1153) better. More flowing, better interplay. My very first impression was also that the xylophone(?) made more sense in 1153 while in the second clip it didn't "do" anything.

I find the bass in 1153 to be a bit blown up compared to 1155, but this is something I ignore when using the Tune Method to evaluate performance.

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by lejonklou » 2016-03-25 15:20

Oooh, I love that song. Thanks Charlie!

I think Mat one side up is better. I find this easier than becks clips, but then again the source is much better.

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck » 2016-03-25 15:52

Hearing the first 10 sec of the first track is enough for me to decide that "one side up" is more tuneful. Definately easier than deciding about my own clips where I find 1153 to be more tuneful. So no surprice. I agree with Lejonklou.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by tokenbrit » 2016-03-25 16:46

lejonklou wrote:I find the bass in 1153 to be a bit blown up compared to 1155, but this is something I ignore when using the Tune Method to evaluate performance.
I couldn't ignore it. If I focused on the piano opening chords as beck advised, I could hear that 1153 was a little better, but the singing came through more in 1155 as it wasn't hidden by the bass. For that reason I preferred 1155 to 1153...
Good learning experience, I guess :) On to Charlie1's clips when I can get 'Fake Paul's' thrumming out of my head ;)

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck » 2016-03-25 17:59

Well, I had hoped to shake Lejonklou's confidence in the Tune Dem department :-) by using a lesser source and some awful :-) music but I failed totally!
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by ThomasOK » 2016-03-25 18:06

On the CD tunes, they aren't really very good are they? That said I agree that 1153 is more tuneful. Yes, the bass is a bit overblown although it isn't particularly tuneful on either one. But the voice and piano are easier to follow, have more texture and swing more. Xylophone is more in tune as well - something about the echoes in the xylophone really bugged me on 1155. Everything is just pretty flat on 1155 overall.

On the mat, yep it is one side up that I like better on both tracks. Wondered about the effect of Silly Putty damping between track 1 and track 2. ;-)
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by u252agz » 2016-03-25 19:54

Becks recordings - I much prefer 1153 - just better . Not really listening to the bass as such - would have to go back and concentrate on each track to comment on this.

Charlie 1s recordings - much prefer 'one side up' so much so that I really can't listen to the rock track ( not my thing really ) on 'the other side up' for more than a few seconds, but can do on the one side up.

I tend to decide very quickly and tend to find that here, as in real life, my first impression tend to be the last impression.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck » 2016-03-25 20:46

Sorry John, my ipad will not work with your files so I am not able to evaluate.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-03-25 20:54

u252agz wrote:Charlie 1s recordings - much prefer 'one side up' so much so that I really can't listen to the rock track ( not my thing really ) on 'the other side up' for more than a few seconds, but can do on the one side up.

I tend to decide very quickly and tend to find that here, as in real life, my first impression tend to be the last impression.
I think you guys find this easier than me. Even though I recorded the files I don't find the rock track exactly obvious. Maybe I know the song too well but I doubt that's all it is. I find the Talk Talk track pretty clear though so that's something.

Had a quick listen to John's and preferred 9 and 11. Again, I found it quite hard to make a decision.

And yes you all picked the mat orientation I use for normal listening.

Good spot on the silly putty Tom. I realised I hadn't used it on a while and better give the cart a clean.

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by u252agz » 2016-03-25 22:05

Charlie1 wrote: I think you guys find this easier than me. Even though I recorded the files I don't find the rock track exactly obvious. Maybe I know the song too well but I doubt that's all it is.
Much easier when A/B is so quick, as it is here.

In real life when switching over components - not so easy .

My memory of the previous system fades quickly in these situations.

If there is not much between them and both are essentially musical, it can be very tricky.

Lejonklou products vs Linn equivalent tend to make these comparisons quite a bit easier- in my limited experience.
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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by beck » 2016-03-26 12:00

Not making it easy for you people I have now made 2 clips using two different pairs of Linn black interconnects.

Can we agree on the most tuneful pair?

Let the listening begin

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Re: Playground for practical exercises in Tune Dem

Post by u252agz » 2016-03-26 16:33

Prefer the first one - 8 MOV on a quick A/B
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