Tune dem

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Peter 18
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Tune dem

Post by Peter 18 »

I would like to praise the tune dem method of positioning your speakers. I own a pair of Ninka´s and did the tune method with them. All in all it was fantastic. At last my equipment sounds REALY good, and its a pleasure to play music again. I recently bought an Ikemi and I suppouse it also has something to do with my good result. :twisted:

I have a feeling that I will realy start to buy CD`s now and play them at my place !
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Re: Tune dem

Post by jajo »

Peter 18 wrote:I would like to praise the tune dem method of positioning your speakers.
To get real value for the money, a thorough positioning of the loudspeakers is vital for the end result. I have listened to high-end hifi-systems where only a percentage of the full potential was presented to the listener.

And never forget that this applies to all hifi equipment, not only expensive Linn-systems. Don't forget to use tunedem to adjust the placement of your bedroom stereo, speakers in your weekend cottage and so on.

(If any reader is not familiar with the Tune Method, this resource might come handy: http://www.lejonklou.com/?page=37)

/ jajo
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Post by Music Lover »

Really interesting is that when the speakers are positioned perfect according to tune dem, the HIFI sound gets perfect as well.
The sound just "snapps into focus".
And the better tuned system, the less need of acoustical treatments.

Like to hear others opinion and experience on this matter.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by jajo »

Music Lover wrote:Really interesting is that when the speakers are positioned perfect according to tune dem, the HIFI sound gets perfect as well.
The sound just "snapps into focus".
And the better tuned system, the less need of acoustical treatments.

Like to hear others opinion and experience on this matter.
I agree!!

If you try to optimize the performance of a sound system by listening to bass, midrange and treble, the result is often a lot worse sound-wise than a perfect adjustment with tune dem. I think Fredrik has drawn the same conclusion while developing hifi products - if tunedem is used the sound quality will be best!

/ jajo
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Tune dem

Post by Peter 18 »

The expression "snapps on" is a perfect discription to what happened to me when I used the tune dem method to adjust my active Ninka speakers.I was amaised that the difference was that big. Altogether I think I moved one speaker 1,5 -2,0 centimeters and the other one a little less, ie what I adjusted was the angle only. :mrgreen: Anyhow I`m totally in love with the sound my system performs. :P
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Post by bonzo »

i must admit ive struggled with this method, but recently playing with speaker placement, it did just snap into place...so now i get it. So heres my question...im currently auditioning a pr of interconnects (non linn in all linn system...brand not important). While they are still breaking in..only about 85 hrs on them, im noticing some odd things which prompted some?s for the group. Can the tune be better, but the sound worse? if im hearing musical notes And lyrics that ive never heard before, is that always better sound, tune, or both. Its quite bizarre listening to cables as they break in..some things get better as others get worse...ive not made a decision on these cables, nor am i trying to, just simply enjoying the experience, and as a result had a few questions. thx
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Post by Music Lover »

bonzo wrote: Can the tune be better, but the sound worse?
Yes but also the opposite and all other combinations of the two.
Totally independent!
Musicality has nothing to do with sound, it's about emotions. :D

So if you listen how the system “sound” you never going to be able to adjust the system for max tune.

Tune dem is difficult to explain but DEADLY SIMPLE to demonstrate and I have yet to find a person that doesn’t understand the method.
Go to a dealer and get a demonstration!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

bonzo wrote:if im hearing musical notes And lyrics that ive never heard before, is that always better sound, tune, or both.
No, it's not always better. Listening to an "old favourite" in a new and very bad system can sometimes make you hear things you've never noticed before. But it's probably more common to discover new things when you listen to a very good system.

The Tune Method should not be confused with good sound, hearing new things or even getting a strong emotional response when listening to the music. Those are things you should try to forget when you are performing a Tune Dem - but in the long run, those are all things you will end up with after you have made all decisions with the help of the Tune Method.

The magic of the method is that once we learn how to use it, we can quickly and reliably tell better from worse and make lots of small improvements that add up to really big differences.
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Post by bonzo »

mmusic lover,
after going to a dealer for 8+ yrs..and never even hearing the term tune dem...then to another dealer and they indicated it wasnt too important...a demo will be quite difficult...6 hr round trip maybe. :(
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Post by Music Lover »

Strange, these Linn dealers are way off...

fyi - just tried the difference in tune with/without the TV in the room. A big difference!
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Post by Charlie1 »

I had heard the term Tune Dem before, but never been shown what to do.

I'm keen to try this on my Ninka's today. I think this was done by the installer origionally, but I've completely changed the room around since then, so it will need doing again. Hopefully, I can get some advice if I get stuck. Cheers.

I made my first Tune Dem attempt last night using different pressings of LPs (I don't have CD, so can't compare different sources). I've been a bit unhappy with the new Steve Hoffman mastered 'Sweet Baby James' and 'Blue' (although Joni's vocals are just georgeos on the new LP.) He sometimes uses Valves during mastering and these new LPs sounded a bit off the pace compared with the originals. Anyway, I attempted Tune Dem and the original 'Sweet Baby James' was much easier to follow. As for 'Blue', the new Steve Hoffman one came out tops, but the difference seemed less [Jan '08: later Tune Dem's with more experience proved that the re-issue was worse]. Hope I'm doing this right.

ps Am I the only person left alive here? I feel like I've scared everyone away!
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2008-01-20 20:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lejonklou »

Hi Charlie and welcome here!

Statistics say that there is a couple of hundred people reading this forum every day, so you are certainly not alone. The postings are not as frequent, however. One or a few each day is the current level. I don't really mind this, as I think the quality level is high and quality is my focus.

I don't think I've heard any Steve Hoffman records, but it does sound like the Tune Method is working for you when evaluating them!
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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Lejonklou.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Lejonklou,

I'm exhausted - moving Ninka's backwards and forwards and sideways for an hour!

I'm finding quite large changes in position easy to notice or large changes in toe-in, but anything subtle is beyond me at the moment.

One question - I do find it a little easier to listen outside the room as suggested previously in the thread. However, do you think I should really sit in the listening position when it comes to Tune Deming speakers, or does it not really matter?

Thanks, Charlie.
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Post by lejonklou »

You can stand outside of the room when evaluating speaker positions.

I am mostly inside the room for practical reasons, but when I get stuck on something difficult (e.g. comparing 10 and 15 mm of toe in), I go outside the room and sometimes find it easier to make the decision from there.
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Post by Charlie1 »

I've had enough for one day - it gets a bit tiresome after too long. However, it's made a big difference already so I'm really pleased. Apart from being more melodic, there's that 'specialness' back again. Just one example: the start of 'Telegraph Road' is really haunting once again and the whole track flows much more - more engrossing, more everything really.
Thanks you Lejonklou for that. Rgds, Charlie.
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Post by Azazello »

A very valuable advice is to use records that you haven't heared before. A record that you allready know is enjoyable on any system, it is often more diffcult to tell the difference on music that you allready like.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Azazello. Had another go late last night with unfamiliar music and was able to fine tune even furthur.

I also found it easier to use the suggestion that you are auditioning for a new musician (thanks to ThomasOK - 'How to learn Tune Dem' thread). I was able to stay in the room in front of the speakers no problem. Also used some Rubinstein, as I had one of his that I hadn't heard before. Low volume seemed to help as well.

The only thing is, once I'd finished I wanted to carry on and find more improvements! The scary thing is, I would have paid quite a few pounds for an improvement like this! Perhaps I'll try my LP12 on another table next.

Have people found any general preferences for equipment? i.e. I also found that my Ninka's were better with very little toe-in.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Hello Charlie1 and welcome.

In my experience most of the Linn speakers, and definitely the Ninkas, seem to be most musical with only slight toe-in. The Artikulats seem to need a bit more than most of the others but still less than most other brands.

There are really a fair number of things that can be done to fine tune a system from precise torqueing of the screws and bolts in an LP12 or speaker to making sure that not only the interconnect and speaker cables but even internal power wires and fuses point in the right direction. While some of these make more subtle improvements (fuse directionality, LP12 mat directionality) others can certainly make the kind of performance improvement you would expect with a substantial upgrade like a Trampolin2 or Cirkus.
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The noble art of tuning...

Post by zeedje »

I would like to share some more thing that I have learnt during the years of tuning.


  • Always tune with a friend, it is very easy to make the wrong decision and get lost. When you are two and you do not agree what is best you probably have found an important point that deserves a little moving back and forth to decide
  • When is enough enough? When it is easy to follow the tune...
    ...true but when you know what importance mains, support and cabling does, then it is easy to get nervous and think "is this The best tuning I can get?" I have two sure signs (besides your wife thinking it is time to get to a mental institution :mrgreen: ); first when the music is enjoyable at low volume setting and secondly, when the needle hits the groove with that right "pluck". Hard do describe, but everyone who has heard what I mean knows that it just takes some milliseconds to hear - yes we are home!
Hope I could get you to stop tuning :wink:

/ Zeedje
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Glad

Post by barend »

Hi all,
Glad the term TUNE DEM was invented, my wife used to ask why I was fiddling with the speakers AGAIN, now I can smartlly reply "I'm performing Tune Dem". :wink:
That said, I feel repositioning speakers can make a sudden and unexpected difference.
The 3K units in my Akurates have a very wide dispersion angle, so it does not really make a big difference for sound level whether I toe in or not, but it does make a difference for staging, depth and width; there's so much in a room to reflect against...
Still striving for the famous "snap to" effect, but I think I'd have to move some furniture, which brings the WAF into play!
I have u hunch this only works for very good speakers, and they are, when I still had KEF's I found myself listening "technically", since I went for Linn last year it is very difficult NOT to be gripped by the music and listen sound critically... :)
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Post by Ceilidh »

Hello Charlie1(!),

I wanted to say thank you for so vigorously pursuing TuneDem -- it's inspired me to try again (I've always had trouble with it), and last night for the first time it's starting to click a little better. :D So thank you for the inspiration!

....and Thomas, zeedje, Azazello, and Mr. Lejonklou:

I've followed the suggestions you collectively gave Charlie1, and they've made a huge impact on my understanding! Heretofore I've always sat in the sweetspot with furrowed-brow concentration, and the "sound" of the system often fooled me. But last night (as per ThomasOK's and Charlie1's comments) I tried reducing the toe-in on my Ninkas -- and this time I didn't sit in the sweetspot, and instead of focusing on what the system seemed to be doing, I imagined I was auditioning performers for a production. And now, as a result, my little system sounds considerably better than it ever has before!

So thank you for all your suggestions in this thread -- whilst I've a long way to go before I'm even borderline competent at TuneDem, the power of the technique is becoming tantalizingly apparent. I'll keep at it, and thanks very much again!

-C
Charlie1 wrote: ps Am I the only person left alive here? I feel like I've scared everyone away!
Charlie1, regarding the occasional silence here: that's one of the things I really like about this forum! On many other internet forums (on all topics), you have a lot of "opinions" -- often on things the person posting hasn't actually sampled or hasn't carefully assessed -- and there's very little real information in the majority of the posts. But here you have quality instead of quantity, which is really refreshing! :D

Glad you've joined, and thanks again for the Tune Dem inspiration!

-C
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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Ceilidh - I'm glad it's working out. I'm still a bit stunned the difference it's made, although I probably had my Ninka's in about the worst position possible!

One question for all forum members - since Tune Deming the Ninka's, music is now much more involving and tuneful and the hi-fi is much better as well, but it also sounds faster. In fact, it actually sounds too fast at times. Is it possible that you can position speakers so that they are unnaturally fast? Even my wife said it sounds like it's running too fast and for her to notice anything at all is like seeing flying pigs. I suppose the LP12 could be running a little quick, but I don't have a strobe to check. Besides, a new arm was only recently fitted by a reputable Linn dealer, so I would be surprised if it is out very much. Maybe I haven't Tune Dem'd it correctly after all, but every other area is so much better that I think I must be close at least. Could it be that we are so used to music sounding slightly slow that when it's played correctly, it sounds too fast? I could increase the arm weight (currently an Akiva set to 1.75) as that normally slows down the pace, but I just wondered what other members thought?
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Post by Azazello »

It sounds a bit strange, usually when things get better, it feels like the music is slower (allthough it isn't). :?
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Post by Charlie1 »

Out of interest, has anyone had a situation whereby device A performed better in Tune Dem at lower frequencies, but device B performed better in upper frequencies for example? Or does this never happen - i.e. one device is always better across the board? I was just curious that's all because sometimes I've used a bass guitar melody to Tune Dem and left it at that.
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