Tune dem

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Yes, this can happen, although I don't think it's common.

Normally when you compare different components (like two power amplifiers), one will be better across the whole range. But during the development of Slipsik 3, I compared several new precision resistor models and one of these was very tuneful in the upper frequencies but not very tuneful in the lower bass... In the end I found that the best solution was to use these resistors at a few key positions and other models at other positions.

When Tune Demming speaker positions, it's in the bass region where most changes happen but you can still use for example a solo guitar track when comparing. The bass will affect how easy it is to follow the tune, even if there is almost no bass in the music being played. This can seem a bit funny, but it works. Even when adjusting the level of a subwoofer.

And by the way, I don't agree with Azazello's opinion that music will usually appear slower when the reproduction is better. I think it's rather individual and can differ between occasions how we perceive this.
User avatar
bbyte
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 72
Joined: 2007-09-05 22:54
Location: Poland.

Post by bbyte »

Sometimes music gets healthy energy kick...
Especialy in those rock & metal discs. :twisted:
Robert Lake
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2007-08-19 17:50

Tune deme things to remember

Post by Robert Lake »

In the old days, long before the CD, traditional HiFi was all about clarity. The basic challenge for a sound engineer was to reproduce sounds in such a way that it sounded very clear. You should be able to hear instruments and voices clearly and be able to separate them. You would like to reproduce handclapping accurately, and a piano so that it really sounded like a piano. If you compare cheap HiFi with more expensive you will notice this difference in clarity, especially if the front end is a turntable.
The next problem for the sound engineer to create some three dimensionality from two speakers. You like to hear the positioning of the piano, left and right, and how the first violin is seated with respect to the second violin etc.
However, no matter how good you are, the sad truth is that musical reproduction is still far away from a real musical experience. The most important factor you are missing, if you focus on sound reproduction only, is the emotional effect that listing to music creates..
The solution is quite simple. When comparing HiFi, you must compare it in the same way as you judge real musical performance. Only ask questions about what you are hearing that has a musical meaning. Don't ask questions and comment on how the treble is sounding or how much bass you are hearing. Ask questions like these: Is there a bass player in the band? Can you here how he or she is playing? Is he or she playing good? Are they in tune with rest of the band? Instead of asking questions about the smoothness of the treble, ask how is this female singer singing? Does she sound intelligible? Can she express some emotions in here voice?
When using the tune dem, never ask questions about treble or bass because they are totally irrelevant. If you think there is too much or too little of something, it might become irrelevant once the optimal position has been found. Or, these matters must be addressed by changing the positioning of the amps and source in you system, including stands and speaker cables after find the optimal position.
It is important to remember that we are not judging the absolute qualities of an artist. You might hate Michael Bolton, but this is not issue here. What matters is how you judge his musical performance on one HiFi system compared to another. People who like music are always able to express opinions about different types of music. Therefore, when choosing HiFi listen and compare by asking only questions that has a musical meaning.
The tune dem cuts through a number of musical relevant questions in the context of HiFi by focusing on what happens in your mind when you listen to music you like. If you listen to music you like, you are recreating the music in your head and that creates an emotional response. If you don’t like the music, you don’t recreate it in your mind. It follows that the easier it is to recreate the music in your head, the easier it is for you or anybody to appreciate the music. If you start focusing on things like bass, you might get some good sounding CDs but you destroy many others.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Great advice, Robert!

Welcome to the forum!
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Since learning the Tune Method, there has still been a small question mark in the back of my mind raised by something I'd read on the Naim forum. I can't recall the details, but it was along the lines that this member had been demonstrated the Tune Method by Ivor, but upon trying it with live music it didn't hold water - i.e. The Tune Method didn't apply to live music, so it was all a con.

Personally, my system has greatly benefitted from the Tune Method, but it had occurred to me that perhaps the Linn sound added something that wasn't there in the original recording. Maybe Linn products made music more tuneful than it was in real life. Having never been aware of Tune Dem when attending live gig's, I couldn't be sure.

I had kept an open mind on the subject and decided to wait until I could find out for myself, preferably by listening to acoustic music. So with a Jazz evening lined up last night, I looked forward to a chance to hear for myself.

Using the Tune Method with live jazz last night was so very easy to do. As good as a Linn system is, this was much more tuneful, rhythmic and flowing - totally effortless in fact. So my questions were very quickly and easily answered and I feel a bit silly for even questioning it now :oops: . Anyway, I thought I'd just add it to this topic in case anyone had wondered the same thing.
Azazello
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 630
Joined: 2007-01-30 21:59
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Post by Azazello »

"Tune method", in my view, is not a way to "listen to music". Most human beings already have the ability to do so. Tune method is only a method to compare components (or positions) in hifi-systems with two big advantages; First: It can be done fast. Second: It judges the "total" amount of "musicality", rather than the very limited view that can be created by an "intellectual" approach.

Personally I can't se how tune-method could be useful in any way when listening to a live performance since it is supposed to be a representation of how we naturally respond to a musical performance.

Regards
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Post by Lego »

If you are at a gig and the performer is singing out of tune and you are just listening to the congested top end,you might not notice the bad singer unless you are listening to the tune (ie tune dem).

lego
I know that tune
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

I don't think I've explained myself very well. I understand that the Tune Method is for the purpose of comparing option A against option B, not for listening to live music . However, over the past few weeks, I've used the Tune Method enough to have an approximate idea how easy it is to follow an unknown melody using my system. I've built up a mental picture if you like, so that when I happen to hear a friends mini-system and attempt to silently follow the tune in my head, I can now tell it's not as tuneful even though I'm not doing a direct A-B comparison - obviously this only applies when there are big differences.

The Naim forum member was claiming that he had tried to silently hum the tune in his head whilst listening to live music and found that he couldn't do this at all, thereby claiming that the central element of performing the Tune Method was invalid (I've searched but can't find the post). All I'm saying is that I found the complete opposite. Following an unknown melody played live (and with a rough idea how tuneful my own system can be), I found live music much easier to follow than I've ever experienced using my system. Again, the difference was large enough for me to conclude this without there being a direct A-B comparison (which would be impossible anyway - unless you recorded the song direct to CD and then took it straight home to compare!)

PS Does this still sound like I've got it all wrong? Should I stop digging now or just keep going all the way to Australia? I must be nearly there already!
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

I think Charlie1 is quite rigtht. And I respectfully submit that the Naim Forum member is likely tonedeaf. :wink:
User avatar
Moomintroll
Active member
Active member
Posts: 166
Joined: 2007-04-22 21:52
Location: UK

Post by Moomintroll »

Here's a thought...

Does the Tune-Dem criteria apply to setting up PA systems and stage amps - both position and EQ used?

From some of the dire results I've heard, I would say it does.

'Troll
Urs
Member
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-12-18 08:49
Location: Horgen, Switzerland

Tune-Dem in concert ?

Post by Urs »

Dear Colleagues,

Firstly, I admit that I’m kind of new to LINN and Tune-Dem – so please forgive for some aspects of ignorance !
(Except for the active LINN speakers, the rest of the electronics is mainly NAIM – where „PraT“ is ruling - ...., but that’s not my topic)

Tune-Dem, as I understand it, is a comparative way of evaluating the musical entity or integrity of an audio reproduction at home using different systems, but I assume, you could sort of apply it also for a musical performance in concert.
BUT: within the context of Tune-Dem, you would want to evaluate various optimal seating positions within a concert hall for instance.
If you ever listened to a big symphony orchestra from the front row, and than changed to a middle or back seat, you certainly heard a difference, ALSO in terms of tune-Dem .

(….However, I doubt, that “evaluation of quality of seats” is really the purpose of a concert visit after all ….!!)

On an other line of thought:
Is the “PraT concept” of NAIM all that different from Tune-Dem ??
Both ideas put MUSIC in its integrity of replay first, and purely “analytical or HIFI-type qualities” second.

regards from Switzerland,

Urs
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

I was trawling through old Topica pages the other day, from when Fredrik used to run it, and reading peoples thoughts about the Ninka and Katan when they were launched. It would seem that the Katan Tune Dem'd better than the Ninka (I think this was in passive config). My question is whether or not this is common - do smaller speakers usually Tune Dem better than their larger cousins (i.e. 212s vs 242s etc)? If so, any ideas why? I always thought that smaller speakers were more prone to distortion, but I suppose they are faster and therefore perhaps time better? :?
hcl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 360
Joined: 2008-01-13 11:03
Location: Göteborg
Contact:

Post by hcl »

Moomintroll wrote:Here's a thought...

Does the Tune-Dem criteria apply to setting up PA systems and stage amps - both position and EQ used?

From some of the dire results I've heard, I would say it does.

'Troll
Certainly! Anyhow the goal when setting up and tuning a PA is to maximize the systems ability to comunicate the musical information i.e. the audiences understanding of the performance. The problem when tuning a PA is that it might be difficult to precisely repeat the test signal (which is required for a correct tune-dem) if there is no Synths. or its like around. The goal would be to optimize performance for the performing artist so the optimm signal would be the artsts themselves.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote:do smaller speakers usually Tune Dem better than their larger cousins (i.e. 212s vs 242s etc)? If so, any ideas why?
My spontaneous answer is no, the smaller model is not usually better. But the bigger models are often more tricky to install!

My impression is that the deeper a speaker goes in frequency, the more difficult it is to position perfectly and it will also excite other things around them. When you do get it all perfect, the larger speaker will shine and outperform a smaller speaker of similar performance.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Fredrik.
User avatar
bbyte
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 72
Joined: 2007-09-05 22:54
Location: Poland.

Post by bbyte »

I've recently showed the tune-dem method to a friend of mine, that isn't so deeply involed in hi-fi. After some time, (hour or two) he finnaly understood the rules and said it was pretty simple, but if someones talk only about imaging, bass, treble, mid and all that kind of stuff turning him to tune-dem fan may take some time.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Just some feedback on more Tune Dem success. I've been meaning to Tune Dem the arm counter weight for some time, but finally got around to it this week. When I first Tune Dem'd the Ninka's into position, everything sounded much better overall, but it was also a lot pacier. This one aspect didn't seem 'right' to me (i.e. wasn't what I was used to hearing), so I subsequently increased the counter weight from 1.75 to 1.8 grams which had the effect of reducing the pace. I tried to Tune Dem this change as well, but wasn't proficient enough at that time.

Applying Tune Dem this week and I found 1.75 was best after all :roll:. Having had a couple of evenings to get used to the change, I'm happy to report that not only is it more tuneful and easier to follow, but surprisingly easier to understand the words being sung. I don't often read the lyric sheets, so I've always filled in the gaps and guessed the odd word that wasn't clear. All of a sudden, I'm noticing for the first time what's really being sung which is quite rewarding :)

Anyway, just another example of what difference a small change can make when using Tune Dem. Have a good Easter weekend. Rgds, Charlie.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2008-03-30 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Very cool, thanks for reporting Charlie!
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Folks,

I am a bit stuck and need some advice re The Tune Method as I've been having some trouble comparing two non-Linn products.

I've had to go back to basics and read Ivor/Linn's explanation of the process plus, old forum topics and Fredrik's explanation. But still sometimes I think 'A' is better and other times I think 'B' is better - I just go round in circles! I've consistantly used only music that I've not heard before. I've also tried listening from outside the room and do find this a bit easier, but still, I'm not SURE, and I feel that I should be able to have certainty. I suppose the two products could be very evenly balanced, but I don't think this is the case here.

My conclusions so far are that product 'A' reveals notes much more clearly and I often realise that the melody is more complex than I had thought, where as with 'B' I tend to gloss over some notes. Listening with 'B', I find it easier to guess where the music is heading as I have more sense of what the next note will be even though I'm not familiar with the music (perhaps am I just filling in the melody myself because I can't hear it so clearly?)

Back to 'A' and I do think it's a little easier to identify the pitch of each musical note when I silently replay the note in my head (this is the Tune Method - Yes? - and all there is - everything else is just 'fluff' which we add on to the subject?) and I think I need to concentrate my mind a bit less on locating the pitch. Onto 'B' again and it seems to have more flow and I think it's easier to sense where the music is going (this is not the Tune Method, but subjective - Yes?). Do you guys agree, or is it always the situation that the product with the best Tune Dem performance will always be the most flowing etc as well?

I am now thinking that the easier it is to identify the pitch of any given note, then the music will probably be more flowing and also have a better sense of where the it is going - simply because it is less work and takes less time. HOWEVER, there could be many other factors that cause music to seem to flow better and have a stronger sense of direction, so we shouldn't look for these characteristics (as I have been doing) when performing a Tune Dem. Product 'B' may in fact have more subjective flow whilst it is product 'A' that performs better in an A-A-B Tune Dem. It is ONLY the ease by which we can identify the 'pitch' of each note/chord that constitutes The Tune Method. What do you all think?!!! :?
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Post by Music Lover »

Charlie1 wrote:What do you all think?!!! :?
That you think and analyze way too much!
The more you trying , the less relaxed you going to be and the more you tend using the brain --> harder to evaluate.

So; relax, try to feel, not using the brain.
Play a tune, evaluate.
If you cant distinguish, change tune. Do NOT continue trying as you going to get in to the trap "trying".

Taking a brake is also effective to get more relaxed.
A half glass wine, reading a good book perhaps?
Stress is the worst item - block the ability to evaluate.

Good luck!
It's all about musical understanding!
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Music Lover wrote:That you think and analyze way too much!
The more you trying , the less relaxed you going to be and the more you tend using the brain --> harder to evaluate.
Yes, I agree the more relaxed the better and trying to squeeze Tune Dems in between the needs of a young family is probably not helping - especially of late when time is very limited.

However, I still think there is more to it than that and that I'm raising a valid point regarding the application of The Tune Method.
Azazello
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 630
Joined: 2007-01-30 21:59
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Post by Azazello »

Charlie1 wrote:
Music Lover wrote:That you think and analyze way too much!
The more you trying , the less relaxed you going to be and the more you tend using the brain --> harder to evaluate.
Yes, I agree the more relaxed the better and trying to squeeze Tune Dems in between the needs of a young family is probably not helping - especially of late when time is very limited.

However, I still think there is more to it than that and that I'm raising a valid point regarding the application of The Tune Method.
I have to agree with ML. Try not to intellectualize at all. You might try the "Audition method" and focus on the musicians performance.

One funny thing I've noted is that I find it more difficult the bigger the difference is, once I had a demo with some cheap Rega against a LP12 SE and that was very confusing, too different to compare so to say. Maybe that is the case here as well? What products are you evaluating?

Sunny regards
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Azazello wrote:I have to agree with ML. Try not to intellectualize at all. You might try the "Audition method" and focus on the musicians performance.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. I agree that DURING a Tune Dem it is unhelpful to think too much and intellectualize about the performance.

However, the 'thinking' that I'm suggesting is about how The Tune Method should be undertaken, NOT what you should think when actually performing a Tune Dem. I want to discuss the core activity of a Tune Dem - i.e. the theory behind it. Isn't this the main purpose of this forum - to compare two products using The Tune Method? So why not discuss that method in more detail?

I'm making two suggestions:
1.) the perception of musical flow and sense of direction are NOT part of the Tune Method, although I'd like to think that the better performing product in Tune Dem will also have more flow to the music, BUT I think this is only subjective.

2.) The Tune Method is ONLY about the ease by which you can identify the pitch of a note/chord in order to replay it in your head.
Azazello wrote:One funny thing I've noted is that I find it more difficult the bigger the difference is, once I had a demo with some cheap Rega against a LP12 SE and that was very confusing, to different to compare so to say. Maybe that is the case here as well? What products are you evaluating?
I think this is the case here. Quite different presentations. I've never had this trouble before when trying speaker positions or even fuse directionality, which is why I've had to go back to basics and question what I'm doing.

Sunny Regards too :D At last - some properly hot weather here in the UK. No doubt Sweden is doing somewhat better - I think you have better Summer's - at least that's what my first girlfriend always said who was from southern Sweden.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie, from how you describe things, you seem to be in the same position I was a number of years ago. Therefore I think I understand exactly what you mean. Please object if I'm not!

It was when I started intensely comparing differently tuned circuits that I sometimes encountered these kind of situations. Let me give you one example: The amount of negative feedback used in a circuit strongly affects the sound and the musical properties of the reproduction. Too little and the presentation becomes sloppy, too much and it looses the flow 1).

At some value, the sound is optimal. As with many things in hifi, one can compare smaller and smaller steps and still feel that the difference when listening is BIG. Finally one reaches the point where a decision has to be made: Should the feedback factor become 50 or 51? I often still perceive the difference as important, but the precision available is always limited: Settling for 50.4 is simply not possible (except if each individual unit is fine tuned, the way Slipsik 4 is on six different parameters - but that's madness for any larger scale production).

Ok, now I'm getting to the point: Sometimes in these comparisons, factor 50 has flow - it boogies, it talks to my emotions, it moves my body. Factor 51, on the other hand, is precise. It has a clarity on each note that makes me hear the details - and, seemingly, also the melody - better. The instruments are more separated and easier to distinguish.

Which do I choose?

I make many comparisons, with different music and with different positions (from another room etc). I ask my son (his immediate decisions have so far turned out to correlate 100% with my long term decisions!). I leave it at 50 (the one with more flow is more likely to win in my experience) and make a note to return to this parameter later in the development stage, when many other parameters have been set.

These very difficult Tune Method decisions have slightly revised the way I look at how the method actually works. A neurologist named Jan Fagius has written a book called "Music of the Hemispheres", that is about what science currently knows about how the brain handles music. I won't summarise what he has summarised, but one fact is that there are several centers in the brain, which interact and understands the music in different ways. One part is more analytical and thinking ahead, another is more emotional and trailing along etc.

Why do I mention this? Because after I read this book, my understanding of the Tune Method deepened and the conflict between 50 and 51 (in the example above) made more sense than before. The Tune Method is about understanding the music with many parts of your brain. Not just responding emotionally, not just analysing the plucking of a string, not just focusing on the pitch of each note in the melody, but all of these things. At the same time!

This can be difficult and just like ML and Azazello has written, it is vital to be relaxed and focused when performing it. Some people do it naturally, without any instructions at all. Others are helped by a demonstration and a few people never seem to get it - funnily enough they can still be passionately interested in HiFi, but in my opinion they have a different hobby than we do...


From the extreme length of this reply, I think you can tell I'm having a very nice vacation! :)
I have just reached the point where I'm really longing for work again! :D


1) The technical reasons behind this is another, but very interesting discussion. With increasing negative feedback in a given circuit, the total amount of distortion is ever decreasing. How, then, can there be "too much" negative feedback, when all that happens is that the sound is less distorted? The answer lies in the fact that the type of distortion changes, and there is a certain balance of these types that seems to irritate our musical appreciation the least. My conclusion (so far I haven't read it anywhere else, but it wouldn't surprise me if some audio guy said this 50 years ago) is that the balance in the distortion spectrum is far more important than the total amount of distortion.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Fredrik,

Thanks for your in depth response.

Yes, I think my experience is of a similar nature. I was secretly hoping for a nice neat answer which would support my ideas about the Tune Method, but as is so often in life, the more you dig, the more questions you uncover.

I particularly noticed the word "seemingly" when you said "It has a clarity on each note that makes me hear the details - and, seemingly, also the melody - better". I presume your experience is that the melody wasn't better, it just seemed so?

Still, this is somewhat academic now as you have opened my eyes to other aspects of listening. I presume you now find Linn's explanation of the Tune Method too simplistic? i.e. it's not just about locating the correct pitch and replaying the melody in your head?

I guess I now want to test the ground a little and clarify my understanding. With this in mind, how did you find the changes brought by the Keel? This is a good example of an ungrade that brings clarity to the music and more easily distinguished note. Although I can't recall clearly how it effected the flow of music, I seem to remember that music sounded slower - less flow perhaps.

To answer Azazello's previous question - the two products are LP12 tables.

At present, I am enjoying the better timing, faster transients and much improved clarity of product A. However, with the exception of the improved timing, these improvement have now become 'the norm', so I may go back to product B for a while with it's better flow. However, the improved flow is quite small, so I expect I'll stick with A in the long-term.

As for further 'relaxed' Tune Deming between the two products, I don't know when I'll have time for that again. My daughter is in bed by 7pm (which is great!), but the floor boards squeak too much for me to get away with chopping and changing tables. And the weekends just disappear before my eyes! She's great though!

Rgds,
Post Reply