Tune dem

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Post by Music Lover »

Yes Fredrik, what you wrote is what I meant.
"When a conscious analysis of the music is growing strong within you, it's a bad sign. When you react without having intended it (the music moves you instead of you doing the work), it's a very good sign."

But I like to add, same goes if it's unconscious. Ever happen that you suddenly discover that you focus on something else than enjoying the music? Thats the reason I tend to think an impressive sounding system can be a bad sign.
A great system isn't "sounding" impressive, it makes the records fantastic. */
Note, it's a difference between an impressive system and an impressive sounding system.

lejonklou wrote: I'd also appreciate if you could try explaining the difference in you between doing a tune dem and simply enjoying the music. I am not sure I get what you mean there. You strongly emphasize there's a difference and I still don't understand what that is.
It's not different at all inside me!
I always "felt" the music, also before I heard about the tune method. Can be that I always played instruments but on the other hand most people do this naturally (and all kids I met), except those reading a HIFI magazine and start listen to details, analyzing, thinking, as "that seems to be the correct way doing it". :|

What I tried to describe is that you can listen to music in many different ways example analyzing the details but if you try to hard doing this in a tune dem evaluation, you likely fail.
Get it?

*/ after a GREAT gig, you don't discuss the sound...if it was cold...if it was raining...someone jumping on your toes...
I have a few of these fantastic concerts under my belt. I remember nothing more than I was extremely moved.
Sometimes after the orchestra played the last tune, it's silent for seconds before the audience start clapping their hands. Nobody wants to destroy the magic feeling in the room.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

Music Lover wrote:A great system isn't "sounding" impressive, it makes the records fantastic.
Yes! I fully agree.

A perfect example was the system I tuned yesterday. Before we began, it sounded very impressive. Like a super expensive car stereo system with extended bass and lots of detail. When we were done, that impressive character was gone. Instead each song we played brought a smile to our faces because it was so good.

Time and time again, I've noticed that these kind of systems (with a great source and perfectly tuned) make visitors ask "What artist is this? What record? It's great!". People seldom comment on the system being good.

What I still don't understand, ML, is your distinction between performing a tune dem and just enjoying music. You previously wrote "Charlie, using tune dem to listen to music? Not a chance." This is the part I'm not getting.

A note to those who are unfamiliar with the Tune Method: What we're discussing right now are nuances of how this method works. As I've met ML and a few others who contribute here, I know that we arrive at the same conclusions when we make comparisons. The method works equally well for us, but exactly what it is that we do when we do it, that's what we're trying to understand. Regardless of whether we see things the exact same way, we are all focusing on the musical qualities of the reproduction. We also agree the system greatly affects these parameters.
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Post by Charlie1 »

SaltyDog wrote:What do you prefer?

Which one is tunedem?
Interesting to read about your two approaches to the Tune Method. I think you have an insight into music from your previous experiences as a musician that I find difficult to appreciate. I don't really do 1 or 2 and am quite boring and just stick to just trying to replay one melodic element in my head and use that for making comparisons. As with your option 2 it is normally the most obvious melody that I use. I sometimes replay the entire musical piece in my head - not sure how, but that's what I intend to do and it seems happen.

I think Fredrik and some others are better able to apply the method in more flexible ways, but I just keep it very simple and that works best for me at the moment, but it means I find it very difficult with familiar music. I just get lost and lose much of my ability to compare. Maybe some other approaches are more resilient in this respect.

I like what Fredrik and ML say about a well tuned system and it not sounding impressive and people being more interested in the music. Makes me think my system is good after all :D I have also heard Anthony's system and thought this very much like that - no LP12 though so always at a disadvantage :mrgreen: I also think this goes for recordings. Some of the 80s digital ones sound very impressive when they start up, but after 20secs I'm starting to get that feeling! ...turn it off...it's annoying me already.
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Post by SaltyDog »

Those of you can and are willing please try the following preferably with KDS/D - kk/1/d as that is what I'm using. Anyone else is welcome but please let us know what you are using.

When I went back through this forum and the Linn forum I found that things with the DS firmware has moved along quite quickly. I have gone through lots of changes in my system including moving to a different house. I found that I had many times felt that due to too many changes that I could not make fair and objective comparisons. Therefore I went back to the forums to see which firmwares did make an impression on me and retry things. Now that I have everything burnt in and positioned I could evaluate things myself instead of just following along with what everyone else was reporting.

I searched my posts and found that with Cara 3.1.25 that I simply reported that this was a change that I could live with for a long time.

Well as a good beta tester I changed with each newer version. My system was changing along with all of this so I got lost in the shuffle so to speak.

I then found that with Cara 3.6.7 I said something like Cara 3.6.7 + Carol Kidd's Carol Kid LP (24bit FLAC)= :)

So I went back and listened to each of these two version again.

Music Lover sent me 3.6.7 Thank-you. Axel made it available too. Thanks.

3.1.25 is on the Linn Archived Beta Site.

If you try these versions I believe you will understand what I'm talking about. One sounds like my example 1 and the other like my example 2.

It's not about separation, imaging, sound staging, or the other HiFi stuff. At least not to me. Everything sounds good.
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Post by Moomintroll »

Charlie1 wrote:As with your option 2 it is normally the most obvious melody that I use. I sometimes replay the entire musical piece in my head - not sure how, but that's what I intend to do and it seems happen.
Back in the early 90's, I sat in on a wonderful Linn dem at one of the big hifi shows - it was probably Neil Gaydon that was doing it, so it shows how long ago it was. Anyway, one of the pieces of music that they used was extremely simple and extremely effective at demonstrating the point of the Tune Dem - it was simply three successive notes played on a solo piano and the audience was asked whether the notes were ascending or descending. On the first system, it was impossible to tell - from where I sat, they sounded almost the same note (even though it was clear that it was a grand piano). On the second system, it was very clear that that the notes descended.

Tune Dem - if you can't actually hear the relationship between successive notes, what's the point? That dem really drove it home for me.

Unfortunately, I've no idea what the piece of music was.

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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote:What I still don't understand, ML, is your distinction between performing a tune dem and just enjoying music. You previously wrote "Charlie, using tune dem to listen to music? Not a chance." This is the part I'm not getting.
this is my personal view.
As tune dem is an evaluation method you compare with something.
The key word is comparing.
tune dem = comparing with something else
listen to music = not comparing (even if you can relate to pevious listenig sessions, you simply dont want to, or feel no need)
Follow me?

For me that is a fundamental difference.
If the music is "good enough" I just listen to music without an active desire comparing, analyzing OR (this is important) an unintensional comparasion.
If it's not good enough, even if I try NOT to compare, analyze...my brain start doing this and I get disturbed.
It seems when my brain need to spend too much time bringing order to the chaos, trying to interprete what the ears recieve - the enjoyment decrease.

In a way, also ACTIVE comparasions decrease the joy.
Ever experienced during a tune dem evaluation at the end when it's bloody good - you get a burning desire to instead listen to all tracks on the record?
If the music is "good enough" you dont want to spend time doing other stuff.
Then I guess you expereinced situations where you cant continue listening, instead getting a strong desire to improve the performance. Or leave the consert.

Comparing is boring, enojying is fun. If you are in the middle of an extraordinay experience, comparing is not on the roadmap...
That applies to most situations in life actually.

This is how Mr ML analyze himself and my interpretation. You may think I'm totally lost, sick or just crazy but that's ok :mrgreen:
I enjoy listen to music and that's perfectly fine for me.
We all are different. Thats good!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by SaltyDog »

Is it possible to have better Tune Dem accompanied by a loss of information in the recording?

Is getting more information always better Tune Dem?
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Music Lover wrote: I enjoy listen to music and that's perfectly fine for me. We all are different. Thats good!
People can be as different as music and audio systems, but still have some common interests worth sharing... 8)
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Post by Music Lover »

Moomintroll wrote:On the first system, it was impossible to tell - from where I sat, they sounded almost the same note (even though it was clear that it was a grand piano). On the second system, it was very clear that that the notes descended.
Good test!
Thinking about it, Police often plays in a similar very unique way. Often the lead guitarr play two or a few chords with similar pitch.
Two examples; "Roxanne" and "Can't' stand loosing you".

"Can't' stand loosing you" is a great sanity check. Is it sounding out of tune when the organ play in the chorus? On a bad system the pitch seems to decrease. I also heard a system loosing the tempo when the organ play. Just to speed up again when the organ stop.
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Post by lejonklou »

SaltyDog wrote:Is it possible to have better Tune Dem accompanied by a loss of information in the recording?
Yes. A reproduction can be fundamentally better (wins the Tune Dem) although another has more information. I have heard this many times when files are compressed and information reduced. A well executed compression+reduction can result in a much better file than a bad compression+reduction with more information.

I have, however, never experienced any kind of improvement from a loss of information. A loss of information that is significant enough to be heard always reduces the musical qualities.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Music Lover wrote: this is my personal view.
As tune dem is an evaluation method you compare with something.
The key word is comparing.
tune dem = comparing with something else
listen to music = not comparing (even if you can relate to pevious listenig sessions, you simply dont want to, or feel no need)
I'm not against trying it for normal listening as you know. My view is that people can listen to music hanging upside down from the ceiling with their pants over their head if they want to, so doing tune dem whilst listening normally is fine if it works for them - we're all different and I prefer to leave the door open to different approaches.

I tried using the Tune Method for normal listening cos I often listen late at night when I'm really tired and the music is relaxing and low volume. This means I often fall asleep :( I figured active listening may help get more listening time, but on reflection I think I'm better off just sleeping or listening when I have the energy to stay awake.

Since this topic came to light a few weeks ago I have been checking my habitual listening behaviour when I remember and on two occassions caught myself recreating a melody in my head whilst really enjoying a song. Happened again in the car on the way home tonight and is not something I initiated consciously. Perhaps others do the same without realising - I certainly didn't notice this in myself before.

Having said all that my experience is the same as yours from what you describe and when engrossed in music there is no room for formal usage of Tune Method for me either. BUT maybe you too are automatically doing something in your mind to reinforce the music, similar to silent repitition. Maybe not always. Maybe you are too busy enjoying your music to notice and it only happens when you're totally engaged. I definitely caught myself doing that tonight - Hendrix if you must know :D
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Post by Music Lover »

Charlie1 wrote:I tried using the Tune Method for normal listening cos I often listen late at night when I'm really tired and the music is relaxing and low volume.
How? Please describe what you do.
Charlie1 wrote: Since this topic came to light a few weeks ago I have been checking my habitual listening behaviour when I remember and on two occassions caught myself recreating a melody in my head whilst really enjoying a song.
Is that following the melody (in sync with the music) or recreating the melody (afterwards)?
Sing along (loud or in the head)...playing air guitar...moving the body following the rhythm...dancing...head banging...playing air drums (not good in the car as you tend to press to loud pedal on the beat :mrgreen: )... is something I do in sync with the music from time to time but I dont consider that being tune dem.
Being a drummer I probably follow the rhythm and play air drums more than the average person.(mostly in my head)
Likely a singer follows the lead singer if I have to guess.
I know my wife consider the expression and emotions in the singing/lyrics important.

Normally I do nothing, just letting the music fill my body.
Charlie1 wrote: BUT maybe you too are automatically doing something in your mind to reinforce the music, similar to silent repitition. Maybe not always. Maybe you are too busy enjoying your music to notice and it only happens when you're totally engaged. I definitely caught myself doing that tonight - Hendrix if you must know :D
Jimmy H? Great music!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Charlie1 »

Music Lover wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:I tried using the Tune Method for normal listening cos I often listen late at night when I'm really tired and the music is relaxing and low volume.
How? Please describe what you do.

Just same as I do normally, so replaying the melody in my head as I hear it. If it's familiar music though then maybe your later point is related...
Music Lover wrote:Is that following the melody (in sync with the music) or recreating the melody (afterwards)?
Sing along (loud or in the head)...playing air guitar...moving the body following the rhythm...dancing...head banging...playing air drums (not good in the car as you tend to press to loud pedal on the beat :mrgreen: )... is something I do in sync with the music from time to time but I dont consider that being tune dem.
Being a drummer I probably follow the rhythm and play air drums more than the average person.(mostly in my head)
Likely a singer follows the lead singer if I have to guess.
I know my wife consider the expression and emotions in the singing/lyrics important.

Good point - I'd not considered this. I don't know the answer for sure but guess it's more likely to be that I am automatically following it in time cos I already know the tune. How different is it I wonder between following unfamiliar tune a fraction behind compared to a familiar tune following in time? Maybe there is a 3rd way? Maybe you're version above in time is like you playing the lead and conducting the proceedings verses my listening yesterday was still in time but less as the lead - more in spirit of normal Tune Method I think.

Normally I do nothing listening to music too. I agree on all you wrote about children listening and how we do it naturally. But I also think Salty's observations are interesting and by the sounds of it are something he's picked up from his time as a musician - which I am not.
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Post by SaltyDog »

Just from experience, when I feel I have my system in full Tune Dem I can follow music in a way that is not at all lagging behind the music being played. When it sounds lagging - I move speakers further apart to fix this most of the time (not in every room does it work like this). What I mean here is like music played then me repeating.

Sometimes it's the other way around - when speakers are too separated - I get ahead of the music when trying to follow. This feels really clumsy to me, like it's me that has the problem (no comments ;) ). I think too close is better than too far apart although they both bug me.

When it's just right I follow the music like a musician. One of the musicians is leading at any time. Watch a conductor at work. He will direct the changes in this leadership. The other musicians follow, but never lag or get ahead or it sounds flawed. The drummer may take the place of a conductor in non-orchestral music. Ringo clearly does this. Also the lead guitarist - hence the title. I'm just now really able to get the full talent of electric based music because even the live music of this type I've heard is generally played in places with poor acoustics.

When things are setup right I can follow unknown music easily as Music Lover describes with the Air Guitar, drums and even singing (not a talent I've been blessed with). But really following the Tune (to me) is when I can accurately ANTICIPATE the music up to two measures ahead of hearing it. I can be with the lead. With the music. Almost in heaven.

I can't always be two measures ahead - just when the intent of the music allows. When it does allow the air playing (real or in my head) is exactly in tune and time. This is when I can just sit and listen with no thoughts about listening. Me and my music.
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Post by SaltyDog »

If you could see me now you would see smiling while bowing to Fredrick.

Bow
Bow
Bow

One spike of 4 (outer front) still in same spot, the rest moved slightly and removing some toe in. Also put the skeets back in which removes all contact from the carpet. I'm sticking with 3.6.7 out of all the available versions.

THANK YOU
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Post by Charlie1 »

Any advise form anyone on getting speakers perfect when using Skeets on carpet. Mine rock in all directions cos of this, so I guess it's a matter of minimizing and balancing the rocking actions as best as possible.

SaltyDog - was this earlier advice then? I seem to have missed the context, but good to hear you've got another improvement.
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Post by SaltyDog »

Sorry Charlie. It was back on the 10th of May.

He posted: "I installed a system today. When fine tuning the last millimetres of the distance between left and right speaker, the result was a little bit similar to what you describe in 1 and 2 above. Two millimeters more apart made the music more lazy, laid back and big sounding. Two millimeters closer together made it more dry, speedy and detailed. The best performing position musically was right in between those two. At that spot everything just jelled and the music became soo goood. All analysis of "how it sounded" felt superfluous. "

As far as skeets, Mine will rock if assisted. The carpet is too compliant to not. The best I've found is to adjust the spikes so that each skeet can be rotated with the same amount of force. Just even things out the best you can while keeping the speakers level or equally tilted if that's what works best. My suspended wood floor is kind of bouncy so I live with it.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks SaltyDog. I will check them that way. Now my system and location are stabilized I have the motivation to get everything perfect again.
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Post by lejonklou »

SaltyDog wrote:THANK YOU
Great that you managed to take it one step closer to perfection, Salty! It's really amazing what those last bits of fine tuning can do.
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Post by SaltyDog »

Those of you with access to good dealers should count your blessings.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

SaltyDog wrote:Those of you with access to good dealers should count your blessings.
I am one of those individuals with access to a fantastic Linn dealer, and certainly count my blessings frequently :!:
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Post by donuk »

I think I rather envy this forum’s members who can appraise their improvements by the Tune Method. I would not attempt to argue against something I do not understand, or am unable to hear, but for me it does not work.

The problem is that as I experience music, the tune is the easiest thing to hear. I am a musician, not the greatest, but good enough to have been professional for many years. To my ears, the actual note of the scale and its duration that a singer or instrumentalist achieves (or is trying to achieve) is not hard to perceive. I can hear that on my hand held world band radio – hear, that is whether the melody is moving from the third note of the scale to the fifth.

Similarly a mediocre hifi system will provide enough information to tell what notes make up a chord. On my first transistor radio, I could hear that the final chord of She Loves You was a major chord with a sixth added.

I add one further point here – I am lucky enough to regularly play with arguably the two best jazz saxophone players in this region: fantastic musical ears which can tell the pitch of a thunder clap. They have ancient rubbish music centres: low fi in extreme. While they agree my system sounds nice, they have no wish to improve theirs. They both maintain firstly that nothing comes close to live music, and they insist that their systems tell them all they want to know about the music.
So how do I tell if my system is on song. Well, firstly, simply intuitively – if it sounds realistic and engaging. I have been around hifi long enough I think not to be easily seduced by excessive tizz, crash and thump that extreme “great systems” have.

No, I am lucky enough to be sitting among live instruments on a regular basis. (Everyone who expresses opinions on hifi should listen to lots of live music in my opinion). So when I ponder over my system, I close my eyes and try to see if I can imaging “being there”. With this comes the realisation that not every musical performance on record would be enjoyable live. So systems which profess to improve the rhythm, timing or tone of such recordings cannot be faithful. There is no point in polishing mediocrity. Perhaps this is why I feel that so many systems that are on demonstration have too much treble, in a false attempt to convince the system is revealing a lot of detail.
Strangely enough I find words, not music, as a useful yardstick in measuring systems. The spoken word (which is frequently poorly miked) when well produced can be uncanny. Similarly the clarity of vocals can be a good indicator – if the singer is able to stand out from the band, the vocal lines are much easier to follow.

So, guys, sorry to have gone on. I do hope I do not become excluded from this forum, because it is one of the best. But I do have difficulty adhering to the doctrine which supports it. Any further enlightenment would be gratefully received.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Audio system development can be different for each person, and there are many opinions regarding component selection. But to some extent, many people do agree on the basic hierarchy or priority of building an audio system.

The concept of "tune demonstration" can be useful for the selection of a component, or comparing various components. However, it seems like not everybody has the same exact definition of tune demonstration.

For me, some components reflect more realism than others. Such as more convincing voices or more realistic piano notes. Of course realism isn't easy for me to express with words, so I end up using the best words possible for explaining realism.

There have been situations when a simple system sounded better, or more realistic, than a more complex or elaborate system. And those situations can be hard to explain. For example, I used the power amplifier section, of an intergrated amplifier for a few years. I compared several different power amplifiers against this unit using the same turntable, preamplifier, interconnects, speakers and speaker cables. But much to my surprise, and to the surprise of others, no other power amplifier sounded more musical than the power amplifier in my intergrated unit. It wasn't until I got bigger and better speakers (which were very demanding) that I replaced the amplifier.

But when comparing different sets of interconnects, preamplifiers, power amplifiers, cartridges etc., some will sound more musical, or more realisitic than others. And for me, the items that sound better is what I purchase.

Over the years, it has been the Sondek LP12 that taught me the process of tune demonstration. And this experience has helped me with selecting other components down stream.

Just my two cents worth 8)
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Re: Tune dem

Post by Robert Lake »

Related to the thread Does clearer lyrics = better tune? https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=4343

Here is a quote from above that I found

"I found in this thread some people mentioning that better systems made them feel that the music was playing faster"


There is a scientic explanation for this. First, you do not listen with yours ears. You listen with your brain and it is a quite complex process with many parts of the brain involved. It is the brain that translates soundwaves to music or whatever the sound is. My guess is that Tune dem works like this: the less your brain has to work with understanding what you are hearing, the better is the music you hear.

Now to the "science". A person who has lost parts of his or hers hearning (think notes above 5k) will experience that a person speaks faster than what a person with normal hearing is experiencing. This is so because the brain will try to figure out what you are not hearing so well. You hear parts of some words but cannot say exactly what it is. The brain goes to work and tries to figure out, mainly from the context, what is the world? This will occupy the brain so much that a person with less hearing thinks that he or she is listening to someone speaking faster. Thus, two people can have different opinions about how fast someone is speaking.

I am not saying that this is the only explanation to why we experience music from a better system sounding slower. However, there is an interesting parallel here especially when comparing music that you are familiar with on different setups or systems.
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