Tundra 1.2 and Sonus faber Cremona M?

[ambior]

Would this be feasable?
This speaker has an impedance drop to some 2.8 ohm between 100 and 200 Hz.
See for instance http://www.stereophile.com/content/sonu ... qIXjPQC.97

[lejonklou]

Hi ambior!

No problem with Tundra driving that load. The only question is how loud you can play before the amp clips. And whether this level is loud enough will depend on the size of your room and your habits. The speakers are rather sensitive, which is a bonus. And Tundra sounds great all the way up to where it clips, there is no gradual reduction of sound quality as with most amps.

[ambior]

Hi ambior!

No problem with Tundra driving that load. The only question is how loud you can play before the amp clips. And whether this level is loud enough will depend on the size of your room and your habits. The speakers are rather sensitive, which is a bonus. And Tundra sounds great all the way up to where it clips, there is no gradual reduction of sound quality as with most amps.

Thanks. My room measures 4.8 by 8 m and i prefer low volume. My neighbours too.

Oh yes, another question: i intend to use the pre-amp of the Linn Akurate DS. Is that ok?

[lejonklou]

I intend to use the pre-amp of the Linn Akurate DS. Is that ok?

I have demoed digital volume against analogue pre amps quite a few times and the result is always the same: Everyone listening thinks analogue volume is better. It's more fun, because the music makes better sense.

What's important to remember is that when you're adding an extra component into the chain - in this case between source and power amp - you've got to do it right. Good interconnects and power cords, preamp first in the power strip, followed by source and power amp. Torqued. Good support for all units.

So is it OK to use the digital volume? Well, yes, maybe. You still have a great source. But I recommend trying a good analogue preamp at some point.

[fatjulio]

That's an interesting comment about the hierarchy of components in the power strip. Preamp , then source, then power amp. So source first doesn't apply to this?

[lejonklou]

That's an interesting comment about the hierarchy of components in the power strip. Preamp , then source, then power amp. So source first doesn't apply to this?

I agree it's interesting! If you compare the two, you'll find they differ in their musical presentations.

I remember from when it was last discussed here that Efraim Roots and Charlie1 disagreed and thought sources should have the first position. Efraim now has a different system, maybe he'll retest it?

At the time I tried it in most systems I happened to pass (always finding that pre amp first was preferable), among others one that Thomas OK had built. He did the connecting and I sat down to listen. This time it was clear to me that his LP12 should be first in the strip, it just made more sense musically. So I told him: "Huh, this option was actually better, Thomas! Don't you agree?"
And he replied "Yes, I do. And THIS is preamp first..."

[ThomasOK]

I can confirm that in my system I found that preamp first (or in my case preamps) is the most musical way to connect things. Interestingly there is some logic to this that was made into a product by Nordost. They claim that the preamp should have the best path to ground as everything else connects to it (sources and amps). Because of this they have some relatively expensive power strips where the preamp AC receptacle is marked and all the other outlets actually have a half ohm resistor between the ground connection and the ground of the socket. This is to force the grounds to all go through the preamp. I expect that putting the preamp first might have a similar effect of giving its ground the most direct path to the wall.

Note I haven't tried the Nordost unit in my system so I can't comment on its performance. I just mention it because of the story behind it. The demo unit we have only has four outlets whereas I need at least 5 outlets for my system so I don't expect to be able to test it at home anytime soon.

[Efraim roots]

I remember from when it was last discussed here that Efraim Roots and Charlie1 disagreed and thought sources should have the first position. Efraim now has a different system, maybe he'll retest it

Yes I did just when I got the new amps actually but came to same conclusion. Today I tried back and forth a couple of times and initially I again preferred the directness of some musical fundamentals that source first brings, but by the second comparison source first also started to sound a bit off tune, music was less good as a 'whole'. Preamp first seems to bring a very balanced and harmonious interplay, and the music makes more sense that way.

[lejonklou]

Preamp first seems to bring a very balanced and harmonious interplay, and the music makes more sense that way.

Yes! Another enthusiast converted!

Now calling Charlie1, with his newly installed mains power: Source or preamp first in the power strip?

[matthias]

......preamp first in the power strip, followed by source and power amp.

OK to do this way?

1.Preamp
2.Turntable PS
3.Phono amp
4.Power Amp

And where should a CD player or a DS be connected?
Between Phono amp and Power amp?

Thanks

Matt

[lejonklou]

OK to do this way?

1.Preamp
2.Turntable PS
3.Phono amp
4.Power Amp

And where should a CD player or a DS be connected?
Between Phono amp and Power amp?

Yes, in my experience this is the best way.

Unless you think your CD-player/DS is better and more important than your turntable. In that case, put the CD/DS at 1.5 in the list, between Pre amp and Turntable PS.

[u252agz]

OK

I have Preamp x2, DS, TT ps, Gaio, Power amp x2

At the moment I only have a 4 way power strip- but even a six way strip would be one short.

Best solution anyone?

Also how important is a separate power supply from the mains fuse board - currently using the normal socket from the ring mains ( or whatever one calls these things)

[Ozzzy189]

Are you into a double socket? Use two 4 way extensions into a double socket if you can. If you only have a single swap it out for a double. If you can't do it yourself it's probably only an hours work or so for an experienced electrician.
I always think that is dedicated spur is the way to go, less traffic on the mains that the hifi is on can only be a good thing, right?

[ThomasOK]

Or, as in my case you can use an eight outlet strip, but I don't know if they are readily available over there (I assume not since they weren't mentioned).

In answer to the original question I expect the Lejonklou electronics would work quite well although I haven't actually tried it. However the Cremona M is one of the better Sf speakers and we found them to be very musical with Linn electronics so my feeling is that they would be even better with Lejonklou gear.

I do have one customer running Cremona Auditors with Lejonklou electronics and he is thrilled.

[matthias]

The problem with preamp monos and poweramp monos is that one channel gets a superior position on the strip.
How can this be solved?

Matt

[lejonklou]

The problem with preamp monos and poweramp monos is that one channel gets a superior position on the strip.
How can this be solved?

I don't regard this as a problem, really. Because there is hardly any difference between outlet 1 and 2 in a strip. Or between outlet 3 and 4, etc. When I checked my favourite strip, powering only one unit, I found that one of the outlets in the middle probably sounded best (tiny difference though), perhaps due to a more optimal contact pressure (by coincidence)?

So in my opinion, the order in the power strip is not really a falling order of quality. But the order in which the components are connected is still quite important. So the question is: Can we improve things further by powering the two pre amps from two power cords that share one mains plug, instead of having two separate ones? I don't know, because I don't have any mains plug that sounds as good as the moulded originals do. As soon as I start cutting the power cords, things get worse.

If a really great sounding separate mains plug turns up, I'm ready for this experiment!

[ambior]

Or, as in my case you can use an eight outlet strip, but I don't know if they are readily available over there (I assume not since they weren't mentioned).

In answer to the original question I expect the Lejonklou electronics would work quite well although I haven't actually tried it. However the Cremona M is one of the better Sf speakers and we found them to be very musical with Linn electronics so my feeling is that they would be even better with Lejonklou gear.

I do have one customer running Cremona Auditors with Lejonklou electronics and he is thrilled.

Thanks Thomas. My SF Auditors did also very well on a Linn A2200 and on Ayon Spirit III tube amp but after the "upgrade" to the Cremona floorstanders they seem to be a difficult load for both of them.

[lejonklou]

My SF Auditors did also very well on a Linn A2200 and on Ayon Spirit III tube amp but after the "upgrade" to the Cremona floorstanders they seem to be a difficult load for both of them.

This is interesting! In what way are the Cremonas a difficult load for these amps? How does it manifest in practice?

[ambior]

My SF Auditors did also very well on a Linn A2200 and on Ayon Spirit III tube amp but after the "upgrade" to the Cremona floorstanders they seem to be a difficult load for both of them.

This is interesting! In what way are the Cremonas a difficult load for these amps? How does it manifest in practice?

How to put this in words: the mid and upper frequencies are now better detailed but the lower frequencies became let's say muddy. Not clean. Even with resetting the SO of the Linn DS. I have been told these speakers require a more powerfull amp than what i use. Switching the tube amp from triode to pentode gives better results but still not the same clean and powerfull bass from the Auditor.

[Music Lover]

Same on all volume levels?
Can be the speaker (yet to hear a Sonus Faber with bass control)...or room installlation

[lejonklou]

Same on all volume levels?

I was just going to say that if the problem occurs at all levels, it is NOT due to the speakers being a difficult load. This is a very common excuse for a speaker that does not sound good. Just blame it on the amplifier not being powerful enough!

[fatjulio]

I just tried swapping source and preamp power positions. Preamp first is more musical, and less impressive, just as you've said. I'm going for musical. I have a double wall plug that has a power strip, and one component gets it's own plug. I've been swapping the first power strip position and the other wall plug between the 2 components.

This is quite a recurring topic, musicality vs impressive, and I'm glad there are people here to show the light. Linn have unfortunately chosen impressive over musicality these days.

[tokenbrit]

I thought I read on here that it was better, more musical, to plug the DS in one outlet of a double socket, and plug the power strip for the other components in the other outlet... I recall that was the summary from the UK launch of Sagatun in the UK... Did I misinterpret?
I have DS & power strip plugged in to a double outlet (duplex) then pre, pre, Pekin, power, power plugged in to the strip... Will change it if there's a musically beneficial alternate/preferred arrangement

[ambior]

Same on all volume levels?

I was just going to say that if the problem occurs at all levels, it is NOT due to the speakers being a difficult load. This is a very common excuse for a speaker that does not sound good. Just blame it on the amplifier not being powerful enough!

Good to read this comment. Should we conclude that the SF Cremona can not sound good? This could be true given the numerous posts on other sites on what might be the right amp for this speaker. Many owners seem to face this problem. More power seems to be the best solution. But not a perfect solution on the overall. Any other report from SF Cremona owners if any here is still welcome.
Thanks for the input so far.

[lejonklou]

I thought I read on here that it was better, more musical, to plug the DS in one outlet of a double socket, and plug the power strip for the other components in the other outlet... I recall that was the summary from the UK launch of Sagatun in the UK... Did I misinterpret?

No summary of mine and not how I connected the system. I was however suggested the order you describe and later tried it. In my opinion it reduces the level of energy and performs worse. I can imagine it being perceived as better when there is a problem with the system, making it sound harsh or annoying. But it's crucial not to confuse 'actually better' with 'compensation for another problem'.

I have DS & power strip plugged in to a double outlet (duplex) then pre, pre, Pekin, power, power plugged in to the strip... Will change it if there's a musically beneficial alternate/preferred arrangement

Try everything on the same strip, in the order Pre, Pre, DS, Pekin, Power, Power. If not enough outlets, move the Pekin to the separate outlet (as I assume it's less important than the DS).

It's also important to have switch and NAS (in that order) on a separate strip, connected to a wall socket rather close to the one that feeds the main strip. Sometimes it's best to feed it off the second part of a double outlet.