The best NAS for a DS?

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

hcl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 360
Joined: 2008-01-13 11:03
Location: Göteborg
Contact:

Post by hcl »

Music Lover wrote:Yes, all DS products are great and perform excellent even without optimization.
Same can be said for LP12. But still we discuss how to set up&adjust a LP12 in the best way.
Why? We know that we can take a LP12 from great sounding to utterly fantastic with a careful set up.
So tell me...what is wrong with doing same with DS?
No, definitely not. Your (and the others) findings are really valuable and the work has to be continued until the DS-concept becomes immune to other than data errors. Making the ripping part of your findings just (or at least close to) as valuable in the future as they seem to be now. My point is that the solution to that basic issue may only be properly addressed by Linn themselves.
Music Lover wrote:Or do you think we frighten off new vinyl users mention how to get the best out from LP12?
Yes, I think there is a risk that some (maybe many) people may be frightened off by reading too much stuff that might be considered as to complicated or discarded as DS-mumbo-jumbo. Sadly this might be the case regardless if what is written is true or not. I have heard people hesitating about buying a LP12 when hearing/reading about all things that, people claimed, had to be considered when owning it. Silly when you know what it´s all about though. Maybe some DS-tuning should be kept in a tighter forum until the results has been confirmed as fairly general.

When trying out hardware for storing and delivering the music data there is another problem to consider and that is that the manufacturers of these things changes the design very often requireing a continus support of the best gear list. I do agree that this fact gives strong support for the continued work, but I also think that it gives even stronger support for the argument that these issues should be addressed where the may be solved ones and for all. If it is possible!?
Music Lover wrote:Regarding DS, I'm quite sure Linn designed it as simple as possible just to obtain optimum performance, hence no interfaces except Ethernet.
Performing a function with ultimate performance is not a matter of finding the simplest circuit design performing the function but finding the simplest circuit design solving the problem. If solving the problem require a antother/different interface then (in my opinion) it should be investigated.
Music Lover wrote:Yes, Linn is VERY aware of the results we have seen (I've discussed this with Gilad earlier this year) but they simply don’t have the time to check all details. Linn are grateful that some customers spend their time on this and report their findings.
I´m sure they are and would be supprised if they where doing the same work themselves as I (as I already have written) do not think or hope this is the best way to overcome these issues.
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Post by Music Lover »

hcl wrote:I´m sure they are and would be supprised if they where doing the same work themselves as I (as I already have written) do not think or hope this is the best way to overcome these issues.
Not sure I follow you, please elaborate.

What should Linn do to overcome this?
It's all about musical understanding!
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

hcl thinks (or hopes) that the problem is due to electrical disturbances and that an optical input would eliminate the quality differences on the digital side.

Correct, hcl?
JohnS
Member
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 2007-10-02 21:59

Post by JohnS »

I agree that an optical interface would be a good step. But, at the same time I'm not sure it will solve all the problems as I'm finding differences come from at least two sources.

I've seen differences associated with the connection (Ethernet cable, optical etc.), but also where the equipment is plugged into the mains in relation to the hifi.

I've noticed quite big differences when I plug my server or the opto-ethernet converters near to or far from the hifi. It gets better the more isolated I can make the computer and converters/PC from the hifi. I've not had the time to do this with any method so I can't make any firm conclusions, but the effect has not been insignificant.

I've found it's better if I don't plug any IT equipment into the wall next to the hifi or worse still into the hifi extension block. Another mains circuit in the house is best, even if it involves a long extension lead for the computer.

So for me, optical would be good, but it's not 100% the answer... yet.
hcl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 360
Joined: 2008-01-13 11:03
Location: Göteborg
Contact:

Post by hcl »

As I see it we are here discussing two (or three) major issues when optimizing digital DS playback:

1. (a) Getting the right data (the ripping problem, error correction etc)
1. (b) Getting the right data - unspoiled (suppress the analogue characteristics of the representation of the data to be able to produce an analogue image totally true to the data itself)
2. Electrical disturbances introduced through the data interface

Getting the right ripping software etc will sort out issue 1a.
It is obvious that an optical input in the DS would solve issue 2.
Whether it is possible to solve issue 1b while introducing an optical interface is in my opinion a question for Linn to consider.

If Linn could solve issue 1b we should not have to think about which switch or NAS to use as long as they do the same job (equal transfer speed etc *) transferring the data as requested by the DS!?

*) Have any of you tested if there is any correlation between the actual (measured) bandwidth of the network and the musical performance of the connection?
Ducky
Member
Member
Posts: 30
Joined: 2008-06-15 20:57

Post by Ducky »

Just wanted to throw in my NAS experiences.

I started out using a Thecus NAS (5200 pro roustor) which is a killer NAS but continued to have problems with the DS. The problem appeared to be linked to the Twonky module for the NAS. A Thecus NAS does not come with Twonky preinstalled and the module is not supported by Twonky or Linn for that matter.

I switched to using Twonky on my laptop and that actually worked super. No problems what so ever but of course limited disk space.

I now use the 1000GB Ripserver NAS. Ripping is a breeze and very fast compared to EAC with no noticeable effect on sound. The one thing that I can say as a negative is that the current Twonky version that comes preinstalled on the ripserver nas does not support album art for flac files. The version of Twonky I used on my laptop did have album art for flac. I will just have to wait for the folks at ripfactory to deem the next version of Twonky as stable enough to do an upgrade.

So the ripserver nas serves me well at the moment and even my wife has no problems ripping cd's :D

Lennart
User avatar
sommerfee
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 337
Joined: 2007-02-02 17:40
Contact:

Post by sommerfee »

Any opinions on the difference between QNAP TS-109 and TS-109II?
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Post by Music Lover »

Update.
I have a ReadyNas on order, delivery in 2weeks.
Spec according to the best one (#2 ReadyNAS) I tested (below)
Keep you posted regarding test results when it's in operation.

Noticed that Linn recommend a new NAS, QNAP 409. Anyone tried/compared it with ReadyNAS?
http://www.linnrecords.com/artist-vario ... sical.aspx

Friends, did you have time with any DS-network tests during summer?
Music Lover wrote:
- ReadyNAS #1 ST3500830NS 500GB (ES) not tested yet

best - ReadyNAS #2 ST3250620AS 250GB (7200.10)
a lot worse- ReadyNAS #3 Western Digital HDD
slightly worse Qnap #2 ST31000340NS 1TB (ES2)
VERY close to the other Qnap - Qnap #1 ST3500320NS 500GB (ES2)
by far worst - LaCie ST3500630AS 500GB (7200.10)
It's all about musical understanding!
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Post by Music Lover »

Got the ReadyNAS today.
What is the easiest way uploading music?
(intend to copy all files from QNAP and know that inside out but cant find any description in the ReadyNAS documentation for bulk uploads)
It's all about musical understanding!
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Post by Music Lover »

Ok then, time for feedback.
The NV+ was better from the first minute but strangely it is now even better.
Anyone else experienced burn in on NAS?
(I have my QNAP109 to compare with)

In the ReadyNAS I have 4*Seagate Barracuda ST3250410AS 250GB (7200.10) as that config has been the best I previously tested .

Results
Once again source first has been proven to be a highly effective approach!
It's hard to believe how a NAS can affect the musicality, even more strange it also affect the sound!
I wonder, is it same difference on all DS's, from Sneaky and up?
A 1k€ NAS in front of a Sneaky seems over the top but if the relative performance enhancement is same...
I hear new instruments and suddenly supporting instruments previously just making sound in the back of the mix, playing melodies.
It's cleaner, less dirt, more three dimensional, deeper more defined bass, more relaxed/real treble.
Dare I say…more analogue? :wink:

To summarize, similar enhancement as the DS software upgrades. And you know those not being insignificant.

I compared NAS before many times but with the latest DS soft it seems differences between NAS getting bigger.
U2 and other (as they say) badly produced records are the ones benefitting most. Previously quite hard on your ears on head banging volumes, now being better than ever.
Rock On! :mrgreen:
It's all about musical understanding!
User avatar
Briain
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2008-09-05 14:37
Location: Edinburgh

Post by Briain »

Hello everybody. I just joined to poke my nose into this and add some thoughts to the debate (and of course to sey hello) as its all very interesting stuff indeed!

I must admit to being a bit skeptical about hearing differences between NAS devices and disk drives, but have a possible (if unlikely) idea as stated in the next paragraph. I have a ReadyNAS Duo and a ReadyNAS NV+ and I've played about with different disks over the last year (Seagate NS enterprise disks, Seagate AS standard disks and Samsung 1Tb disks). I settled on the Samsungs as they draw less current, run very cool and make practically no seek noise. The noise is not really an issue since the NAS devices live in a comms cupboard, but I tend to think that the more things generate heat and noise, the more mechanical stress they suffer.

My only thoughts as to how any audible differences could possibly be heard would relate to disks drawing different currents; as the load changes on the NAS SMPS (switched mode power supply) the pulse widths will change as part of the regulation process. This will change the spectral output of the power unit (put a MW radio near a plugtop supply, change the load [switch on the device it's feeding] and you'll probaly hear some of these changes in the radio part of the spectrum; the output of these devices spreads up to VHF). Quite a lot of 'plug-top' supplies switch at about 40~50 kHz (which is close to the 44.1 kHz CD sample rate) but I wouldn't have thought that would cause problems in the case of a remote NAS and a Linn DS as the common mode rejection of the CAT5 system should helo reduce it’s propagation through the network and I'd have thought that Linn would have included isolation in the DS as well (I do however note the reference earlier to the optical isolation experiments and that could tie in with this).

That said, when I selected a different plug-top PSU for my Logitech Duet, I avoided ones that switched in this range due to their physical proximity to my audio equipment (better safe than sorry). The ones with the Seagam router and Netgear switch are as supplied (again, they are quite far from the audio equipment). Maybe the answer is to build linear regulated supplies for all the comms kit and keep the overall levels of audio (and particularly RF) noise down :)

Back to the NAS drives, I have not noticed (but not really listened for) differences between disk types on my Linn DS system and can't see how this could happen, but I am willing to give anything a go and will thus try comparing the Samsung equipped NAS versus the Seagate equipped NAS at some stage in the near future.

Bri

Update I tried Netgear ReadyNAS Duo with Seagate Enterprise (NS) disks against NV+ with Samsung drives (the same tracks from each NAS can be put in the playlist at the same time and thus switched quickly using the Linn GUI). Initially, I thought the Duo+Seagate to be better and more musical, but having now tried several tracks, I'm sure they both sound the same. Will try Duo&Seagate NS vs NV+&Seagate AS disks tomorrow (copying 400G Flac files over at the moment :)
Last edited by Briain on 2008-09-07 18:04, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Welcome to the forum, Briain!
User avatar
Briain
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2008-09-05 14:37
Location: Edinburgh

Post by Briain »

Hi
Thank you for the welcome; good to be here!
Bri
User avatar
Briain
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2008-09-05 14:37
Location: Edinburgh

Post by Briain »

Hi
I tried to see if there were any differences but there are none in my setup.

I first tried Duo with Barracuda NS versus NV+ with Samsung HD103UJ as per previous post. I then tried Duo with Seagate Barracuda enterprise disk (ES) versus NV+ with Seagate Barracua standard disk NS and couldn't hear any differences.

I did have major problems with my NV+ half way through the experiment though: http://www.readynas.com/forum/viewtopic ... 54#p115054

Fortunatly I also had some very strong SMWS whisky, http://www.smws.co.uk/ to help me calm down whilst investigating things!

Bri
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Post by Music Lover »

It can be that the Duo and the NV+ are similar in performance.
Can you find a Qnap 109 o LaCie to test with?
It's all about musical understanding!
User avatar
Briain
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2008-09-05 14:37
Location: Edinburgh

Post by Briain »

Hi
I don't have either of the ones you mentioned but have just been handed a D-Link DNS-323 with Samaung HD103UJ 1T disks in it. I'll load up Twonky tonight, transfer the FLAC's over night and wrap me ears round things tomorrow.
I also have an unbranded NAS sitting here (came from Farnell for about £50). Found that the chipset is similar to one which there is a Twonky build available. Put the build on but there's no facility in the interface to start it up. Fortunately, I know a Linux guru who will be able to tell me the commands required to get it going. My next plan is to learn Linux; been side-stepping that for years, but I really do need to get my head round it now.

Incidentally, not too much of an issue when using RAID 1 (as the disks are guaranteed) but I've heard that the Samsung disks have a slightly higher failure rate than Seagates, so to be totally safe, I'm going for Seagate ST31000340NS in my final solution; it's cold in Scotland so the additional heat dissipation won't go to waste! :)
Bri
User avatar
Briain
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2008-09-05 14:37
Location: Edinburgh

NAS's and disk thoughts...

Post by Briain »

Hi
D-Link was a good device for the price! There was a slight glitch adding the second disk after initiating it as a single disk device; it didn't correctly change into RAID 1 (I knew something was up when writing to the NAS; only the one disk light was blinking and the other remained continuously lit). I ended up having to put the new disk into slot 0, the other into slot 1 and then reformatting it. Fortunately, it was a test bed but even so, I invented a completely new swear word just for the occasion! The morale being that for the D-Link, I'd strongly recommend that you start off with the 2 disks, format them into RAID 1 on day 1 and all will be well.

I could hear no difference between any of the NAS drives (D-Link, NV+ and Duo) and would recommend the D-Link on the grounds that it's very cheap, quiet and seems pretty OK for a music only application. It's worth noting that you have to upload an addon to enable telnet access. This permits Twonky to install itself by running an installation script via telnet. It's app pretty easy and automated but I would expect the utility to enable telnet will void the warranty.

The D-Link is also short of many of the facilities the Netgear has and I really didn't like the fact that you can only set the hibernation between 5 and 30 minutes; that would prevent me considering it in my situation as I need to set this to 2h to prevent unnecessary spin down and up cycles (which I recon hammer disks and stress power supplies). One of the other really good things about the Netgear is that you can set it to power up and down each day; it has a 7 day programmer so you could set it to only come on at the weekends etc.

On the issue of disks, I ended up settling on Samsung HD103UJ I TB drives for everything as you can now get them for £80 inc tax. Samsung have pushed the warranty up to 7 years for the enterprise model (HE103UJ) but it is over twice the price in the UK. It will apparently be more available in 2 or 3 months (and thus the price might drop a bit).

My thoughts are that although the firmware will be quite different (suited more to lots of simultaneous small file accesses in a multi user commercial environment), the mechanics of the two are most probably identical and thus that the standard disks will probably be very reliable. In fact, they are so efficient and run so cool that I'm in two minds whether to spin them down at all. When you think on it, the HE103UJ's 7 year warranty is on the assumption that they will be running 24/7 in a data centre; if the HD103UJ's mechanics are the same, it might be better to avoid the stress of starting them daily and see how long they survive in their nice quiet NV+ environment.

Incidentally, the 'green' version of the UJ (called HD103UI) should be available in about a month. It looks like it is the same as the UJ apart from the slower spindle speed. I would think that makes it ideal for a NAS which is in use only for streaming music; it'll run even cooler and quieter as well as using less power.

Hope this is all of use to someone, if not, sorry for sending you to sleep :)
Bri
User avatar
vicdiaz
Active member
Active member
Posts: 248
Joined: 2007-02-06 04:37
Location: Trujillo Alto, PR U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: NAS's and disk thoughts...

Post by vicdiaz »

Briain wrote:Hi
D-Link was a good device for the price! There was a slight glitch adding the second disk after initiating it as a single disk device; it didn't correctly change into RAID 1 (I knew something was up when writing to the NAS; only the one disk light was blinking and the other remained continuously lit). I ended up having to put the new disk into slot 0, the other into slot 1 and then reformatting it.
Great! I did formatted my DNS-323 as RAID-1 since the initial configuration and have been spinning music from it for the last 6 months without a single problem.
Vic
Ivor's "Tune-Method Seminar" Alumni
User avatar
Briain
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2008-09-05 14:37
Location: Edinburgh

Post by Briain »

Hi vicdiaz

Yes, it's a really fantastic bit of kit isn't it; I was well impressed with it; if it the additional ‘bells and whistles’ of the Netgear it would be unbeatable! That said, 95% of owners purchasing them for a DS music library will never need nor look for these features anyway.

I set the D-Link up for one of my friends and was absolutely stunned at how quiet the fan was! Logic told me that it would sound the same as my Netgear devices, but I am always open totally minded and did listen carefully for missing tunes; I'm very glad that it did sound the same though as it's to be used for a friend’s Klimax DS

The only thing I forgot to check out is how friendly the backup utility is. I don't remember actually seeing a utility but presume there's one built in to the web interface. I'll call him today and ask him to check that out; sloppy of me not to do it for him but it was collected a bit earlier than scheduled.

Bri
Munro
New member
New member
Posts: 2
Joined: 2008-08-18 22:55
Location: York

Fibre Optic Cable

Post by Munro »

Hi,
This is my first post. Following the post by JohnS (2008-04-16) and after some initial doubts I eventually purchased 2 D-Link DMC-300SC Ethernet to Optic converters (Now around £40 each + carriage from Amazon) and a 10m SC/SC Duplex Optic Patchcord from RS and linked my DS at home (Klimax DS, Kairn, Akiv 'Bariks). Results are generally very positive. Timing and pitch of the music is undoubtedly better and this was a worry before with the ethernet connections. If there is a downside it is that the music can harden up slightly and perhaps there is slightly less dynamic range but this is more than compensated for by the improvement in clarity and believability of the music. Since I work in a HiFi shop in the North of England we initially hooked it up there with similar results. Has anyone else tried this? Well done John, and thank you for suggesting the idea.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lejonklou »

Welcome, Munro!

I have tried opto isolators in one system with an Akurate DS, where it was an improvement. Soundwise the difference was small, but musically it was less confused and easier to understand with the isolators. Not sure if they were of the same model as you mention.

I know, however, than many others have tried them and found them to reduce quality. It seems to depend on what NAS and switch you are using, where you place them and how all the mains connections are arranged.

It seems to me that those who have experimented a lot and optimised their DS systems without opto isolators, find that the system performs worse when opto isolators are later added.

Music Lover is likely one of the most experienced in here. Perhaps he has something to add?
JohnS
Member
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: 2007-10-02 21:59

Post by JohnS »

Hi,
I'm still using my optical isolators and I've found I can't improve on them with a direct connection. Where you plug their power block into the mains is important, plugging them into the mains strip used for the hi-fi is clearly the worst and kills the sound. As far away as possible is good!

I also tried running the opto box next to the DS on a large 9v battery to avoid a mains connection completely. It was better again, but I'm not sure I want the hassle of replacing a battery every so often.
Per A
Active member
Active member
Posts: 165
Joined: 2007-08-13 10:10

Is this an interesting NAS?

Post by Per A »

User avatar
Briain
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 2008-09-05 14:37
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Is this an interesting NAS?

Post by Briain »

Hi

I had a very brief look and the below things jumped out at me. Note, this was a very brief look so I might have missed something.

Looks good but no mention of RAID 1 capability; OK as long as you remember to make a backup though. You'd have to figure out how to get (and which version to use) Twonky installed on it too (assuming PV make the NAS TM4 files available again).

I also note that SqueezeCenter is not bundled but will be available soon; it should really be there now as opposed to 'soon'.

Might be a lot of hassle unless you were an experimenter who enjoyed gettings to go. Personally, I'd stick with the Netgear Duo since you can now buy them diskless (and thus the price is much better) and TM4 is still available for the ReadyNAS. I'd then put a 1T Samsung HD103 disk (or 2) in it; much lower power (and thus less fan noise) and much, much quieter seek noise than a Seagate. I'd still put it in a cupboard as opposed to the music room but one of my friends has put it on an old cushion and behind a big comfy chair; it was almost inaudible with the Samsung drives.

Bri
Per A
Active member
Active member
Posts: 165
Joined: 2007-08-13 10:10

Post by Per A »

Thanks Briain. The noise and energy matters to me.

Meanwhile the Sneaky still astounds me.
Very satisfying
Post Reply