Playtime is over, time for some serious questions!

[beck]

The stones are gone and all this playing around made me think: how could I solve my placement problem. Well, Linn has stopped making analog preamps so should I stop using my Pretek?

Now my hifi chain is Sondek, Linto, LK100 into Espeks. And funny enough it sounds great. Quite similar to the sound going through my Pretek but more refined and open.
The only problem is adjustment of volume. By a stroke of luck I found out that if I left my preamp (turned off) connected to my amp through the second phono connection on the back I got music at a more relaxed volume level. I now have two fixed volume settings :-). To party or not, that is the question!

My more serious question: is the preamp only a volume control or is something else going on?
Should I expect better sound using an expensive preamp together with my Linto versus not using one?

[lejonklou]

is the preamp only a volume control or is something else going on?

A volume control and an input selector.

Should I expect better sound using an expensive preamp together with my Linto versus not using one?

With a great preamp, you will get close to the sound of not using any preamp. But this time on all volumes.

[beck]

Thank you for the answer. It is definately a more refined sound I am getting now so let's see how long I can live with only two fixed volume settings.

[beck]

One question more: What is going on with my LK100? Why does it give me two fixed volume settings(full blast and "half" blast), and can this be used to make and even better preamp with let's say 4 fixed volume settings?

[lejonklou]

What is going on with my LK100? Why does it give me two fixed volume settings(full blast and "half" blast), and can this be used to make and even better preamp with let's say 4 fixed volume settings?

This is because the preamp you have connected is loading down the Linto, reducing the voltage to about half. This is not a great way of reducing volume and the full blast will surely perform better.

As you are using only one source, I think you should try a Kikkin. They are discontinued, but now and then appear on the second hand market.

[beck]

Thank you again for some interesting answers.

[Lego]

Linto straight into LK100!?..How loud is that ..full volume ?

[beck]

Yes, full volume from the amps point of view and in my system it is controlled and loud. Mind you most of the time I play at "half" volume and it is definately more refined than with my preamp. Timing and tune is the same and very enjoyable.

So next question from me is what full volume from the amp relates to when using it in combination with the preamp? Is it 80% or 100% on the preamp dial?

[ThomasOK]

It depends on the preamp and how much gain it has. On Lejonklou and most Linn preamps unity gain is at a setting of 80 on a scale of 0 to 100. Unity gain is where 1 volt in is 1 volt out so that might be considered full volume of the source. Full volume on the power amp is different as you can obviously go above or below unity gain. Also different power amps have different amounts of gain. For example: a volume of 60 into a Linn power amp would require 68 on a Lejonklou power amp to play at the same loudness level.

[beck]

My guess is that I am getting the same volume as with my preamp dial at around 11 o'clock and at around 3 o'clock but I am only guessing.

I do for the first time now fully appreciate the natural open sound from my Linn Silver cables. Part of the better sound may come from not using a pair of Linn Black cables between the pre- and poweramp.

[beck]

I have been playing vinyl now for a couple of weeks just using my Linto coupled directly to my LK100 into Espeks. The improvement in sound quality is big. I clearly get a more direct feel of what is hidden in the groove. Much higher level of detail and much better micro dynamics.

I have now discovered that I can produce 3 fixed levels of volume. All retain the same kind of sound as discribed above just at different volume levels.

I get medium low volume with my preamp(turned off) coupled to the second phono input on my amp. I get medium high volume with my preamp(turned on) coupled to the amp (from pre out on my preamp). I get high volume with no connection from my preamp to my amp.

I cannot see myself using a lot of money on a preamp in the near future. My focus is now on a better amp or a better phono amp!

[donuk]

Strangely Beck, this sort of echoes my thread on living with the Tundra.
I think the Celebrated Mr L (close to the Celebrated Mr K - quiz question: who made him famous?) may have inadvertently challenged the maxim of source first.
Put it this way, there is no point in playing a good streamer or LP12 into a transistor radio...
Donuk, sunny downtown York...

[beck]

Yes, I read your post and cannot wait to hear the Tundra myself. You lost me on the quiz. Can you explain further? :-)

[donuk]

Think Beatles, beck

[beck]

Aahhh! From Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band: "Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite". Ha,ha! I should have known! :-)

[beck]

To Fredrik: My little trick is not possible with the Tundra?

[lejonklou]

To Fredrik: My little trick is not possible with the Tundra?

Yes, it will work the same with Tundra. Because the mechanism is that you're loading down your Linto with the output of the preamp.

The only difference is that each of your three steps will be 8 dB lower in volume with a Tundra than with your Linn amp, due to Tundra amplifying the signal less.

[Charlie1]

Hi Beck, I connected my Urika straight into 4200. Just playing the outer groove scared the pants off me. Don't know how you do it. Maybe my amp has more grunt or speaker model is more efficient but there's no way I could allow any music to start.

But hey if it's working for you then great, that's all that matters.

I use a Kikkin so can't try the other options.

[beck]

Ahh well. You can't win all the time :-).

I guess I have been really lucky with my combination. Output from Klyde, gain from Linto and so on to end up with the volume I get from my system.

[beck]

A question more for Lejonklou: Why can I use the same trick getting three different levels of volume when my cd-player is my source and the Linto is not connected to the system. Can it be my LK100 that reacts to the loading?

[Ozzzy189]

I'm struggling a bit reading this as I've tried a few systems without a pre amp and it's just not nice, especially listening long term. What initially sounds impressive began to grate and become harsh in the systems I'd tried previously. It might be better with a more aging and less refined pre, but not with the ones I've heard. Majik kontrol, klimax kontrol, Exotik dynamik (ak0) and Fred's kikkin, sagatun stereo and mono. It's all a matter of opinion or taste but it's something I'll not be going back to. Perhaps linn are trying the old jedi mind trick, the sound with the pre is not the sound you're looking for!
Just my thoughts guys.

[beck]

I do think that I have been lucky to hit a sweet spot with my setup not using a preamp. Analog all the way and preferring analog recordings. I never use my cd-player for long.
But my question for Lejonklou stands. If using a cd player as source. Why can I still get three different levels of volume?

[lejonklou]

Hi beck!

I am not seeing your system and its connections clearly when I close my eyes. The unused preamp is still connected or disconnected to the Linto, but you are using your CD player? Well, they will still load each other down when they all go together into the power amp. It sounds like you're doing the same thing as before.

[beck]

The Linto is not connected to my system when I use my cd player (very seldom). So the chain is CD-player directly into LK100 into Espeks with my preamp (pre out) connected to the second output on my LK100.

Not being into the tech is the poweramp reacting on different resistance put upon it through it's second output?

[lejonklou]

Ok, I see.

The power amp is not "reacting" to the preamp. It just plays the signal presented on its input.

The CD player outputs a signal. And its output has a rather low output impedance. The preamp, connected to the second pair of RCA on the power amp, also has a low output impedance. This reduces the signal into the power amp by means of a voltage divider. Part of the signal from the CD player disappears into your preamp. Remove the preamp and the full signal appears on the input of the power amp.