Keel, Ekos SE and Trampolin II

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Post by lejonklou »

Everything out of aluminium starts as a cast piece. But that piece can be forged which makes it a lot harder. Presumably the block of aluminium that Linn starts with is forged (drawn), and therefore extremely strong. If you cast the Keel directly, it will not be as strong.

I don't know exactly what difference this makes to the sound characteristic of the Keel, but I'm sure there is a difference (every detail on the LP12 seems to matter in my experience).

(Yes, you got the name right! :))
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Post by keV »

Thanks - that's very interesting information.

I suppose now it's only a matter of time before the new machined from solid inner and outer platters - must be worth 3 - 4k :)
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Post by ThomasOK »

keV wrote:Thanks - that's very interesting information.

I suppose now it's only a matter of time before the new machined from solid inner and outer platters - must be worth 3 - 4k :)
Oh No! I'm sorry I ever mentioned the idea. Let's hope Linn isn't paying attention.

Fredrik,

I certainly didn't mean to imply that I thought Linn wasn't motivated by profit. They certainly are and as you say we want them to remain profitable so they can keep on making us superior music reproduction equipment. What I was trying to say is that I don't feel, as some on other forums seem to, that the price of the Keel is TOTALLY out of line with the cost of manufacture and the service involved in the installation. But since I really don't know anything about the machining involved I may be being generous to Linn on this.
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Post by Pediatrik »

lejonklou wrote:If anyone gets to hear a lower spec LP12 with the Keel, please report.
This demo will finally be made on the 1:st of March in Gothenburg!

According to the invitation there will be a comparison between a Keeled LP12/Akito 2/Adikt and an unKeeled LP12/Ekos mkII/Akiva. If you own a LP12/Akito 2/Adikt you're allowed to bring it for comparison with the Keeled one!

Me myself will not be able to attend the demo because of a highly pregnant girlfriend, but I hope some members of this forum will attend...
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Post by lejonklou »

Can't be there either, but I'd really love to hear some impressions afterwards.

I think this approach is really smart as the Keel will most likely be regarded as inexpensive after the comparison.

And when you've Keeled your LP12, you attend the Ekos SE demo that the shop will arrange at a later date. :D
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Post by poppop »

Hi All,

Just had the privalage of a visit to linn in Glasgow. Heard the new keel Ekos, akiva in comparison with a non keel, "normal"Ekos and akiva.

Using tune dem there is a clear and distinguishable improvement. I guess many here will understand when I say the music seems to "slow down" when switching to the SE. This has been expressed by a number of people apparantly who have heard the keel etc. - weird sensation. Explained by the fact it takes less effort to follow the tune and the music.
Other equipment - Komris active with 8 solos, KK.
Its out of my league costwise. But anyone in the market for this level of performance will be amazed by the improvement.

Have fun.
Steve.
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Post by Pediatrik »

According to the swedish LINN-forum Selleri, Linnofil had an almost religious experience yesterday in Gothenburg... :D
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Post by Linnofil »

Pediatrik wrote:Linnofil had an almost religious experience yesterday in Gothenburg... :D
Well, I understand now why some people (non-Linn owners) say that Linn is a religion. :D Here is the story:

A very long lunchhour passed yesterday, I came back to the office. But I couldn't work! I had listned to Keel... :shock: :shock: :shock: It was indeed a truly stunning experience. When the music started to play I just knew that life would never be the same ever again. I felt like I heard a whole new standard in music reproduction. It was like the first time I heard an LP12 (in a "top"system) more than 20 years ago. An incredible experience. :!: :!: :!:

I was really pleased that my delaer had set up a fairly standard Linn system (LP12//Keel/Trampolin2/Lingo2/Akito 2b/Adikt/"New"Exotik/C2200/Ninka) so that the Keel difference alone was enhanced. For me it was a new reference in music reproduction. I had never heard anything that good before. The Keel is a real eyeopener in source first thinking. (Not that I personally need one, after 20+ years of listening with Linn stuff.) The £2000 pricetag is very motivated if you consider performance alone. (Although I still think Linn should sell it for £1000 and sell 20 thousand units instead.)

The first tests where with the above LP12 compared with another LP12 with exactly the same configuration, except Circus/Trampolin1. A shocking comparison. The difference was as big as the old LP12 compared with a Rega P2. It really made the standard LP12 sound flat, boring and broken, nothing better than a Rega P2/Thorens etc. It put one of those silly smiles in my face that made me look like the village idiot. I was even laughing by myself when I heard some songs.

I also had the opportunity to compare with a Valhalla in an external box. It was obvious even before comparing that a LP12 with Lingo2/Circus would not be even close to a Valhalla/Keel. It was a night and day difference between the two players. And the difference between Lingo2 and Valhalla is already enormous! Keel feels like three times that difference. It is THAT good! My (excellent) dealer said he felt the Keel was like an LP12 on top of an LP12. Thats's exactly how it feels. Absolutely stunning stuff! :shock: :!:

After arriving late to the musical evening we compared a 2006 “Top LP12” Lingo2/Trampolin1/Circus/Ekos2/Akiva with the Keel LP12. The Keel was the clear winner again. Before I came to the shop the 2006 top LP12 had been compared with the Keel LP12 handicapped with the Valhalla. Then finally the Keel could be beaten. But it wasn’t a unanimous decicison! Some still preferred the Keel LP12! The evening ended with playing a lot of music from differend decades, never heard Supreems sound that good. In fact, I never heard anything sound that good. I’m really, really impressed with the Keel! It is a must have before anything (similarly expensive) further down the chain. :!:

Will this be Linns new slogan: "Keel, because life will never be the same again". :?:
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Post by lejonklou »

What can I say... I'm speechless. Was it that good, Linnofil??

On the demo I attended, it was clearly better. No more than that IMHO.

Got to hear it again.
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Post by Azazello »

lejonklou wrote:On the demo I attended, it was clearly better. No more than that IMHO.
I agree, but that demo was not very good anyway. Somehow the maxed out Linn-system managed to sound boring, maybe there was just too many people in the room or something (I heard the same system later the same night, but only with 1.1 as source and then it was fantastic). My initial thought was that my own system is better, and that is downright ridiculous :?
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Post by Linnofil »

lejonklou wrote:What can I say... I'm speechless. Was it that good, Linnofil??
Yes, it really was! I was speechles to! (Fortunately I could still use my fingers on the keyboard. ;) ) We both know how big the Valhalla-Lingo1 difference is. And the difference is about the same for Lingo1 to Lingo2 (depending on individual performance on the Lingos). The Keel/Trampolin2 difference over the old Circus was MUCH bigger than BOTH these differences added together. Personally I think that the Valhalla-Lingo is one of the biggest differences that I have ever heard before in an LP12 . (Circus is the other really big difference.) To have two of those differences beeing totally blown away by a single action to the LP12 was absolutely unforgettable. I was truly amazed by the performance of the Keel. There is no way back now...
lejonklou wrote:Got to hear it again.
Yes, you must! I hope you will have the opportunity to hear "just" the Keel in same (preferably "low") spec LP12's. I think you will be amazed! I think that the difference was bigger because of the simpler system. It focused on the music and didn't have any better sound than the systems most of us have. Instantly you realized that this was music as never heard before. One other thing that was different between the two demos in Stockholm and Gothenburg is that the LP12's where set up by different dealers. Maybe my dealer has set up the Keel in the LP12 differently? He said that there was no instructions in the package. (Even IKEA has that!) He can be a Keel guru without even knowing about it... :wink:

The first time I heard it, on my lunchhour, I heard that the Adikt was a bit worn. Making the sound a bit distorted. But the music was so good that it didn't really mattered. I was still stunned! The dealer changed the needle and it did improve the sound. But the music was still just wonderful with the Keel. Highly recomended! I just need to find a big pile of money somewhere, preferably tomorrow! :P
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Post by lejonklou »

You have convinced me, Linnofil. I'm going to buy one. I thought the price was high but will probably think it's money well spent once I have installed it and dig into my vinyl collection.

Listening to vinyl is already one of my favourite pastimes. Can't resist taking it to the next level.
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Post by Pediatrik »

Alright! This will be VERY interesting Fredrik! The only problem (for us) is that you probably will be forever lost in your vinyl collection for the rest of the year... :D
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Post by lejonklou »

Got the Trampolin/2 now.

Will report soon.
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Post by lejonklou »

Yes!

This is an upgrade from the previous Trampolin. Mostly it concerns the bass, which is more firm, controlled and exact. This is how I would personally describe the difference:

Those of you who have compared the solid board with the Trampolin will know that on a very light and potentially springy surface like Ikea Lack, the solid board sounds best. It gives a correct attack on each note while the Trampolin softens the attack and adds decay, making the bass soft and slow.

On a rigid and/or heavy surface, the solid board's focus on attack makes the notes truncated. Here the Trampolin filters the sharpness of the attack and the decay is normalised, making the music easier to follow and understand. In general, I prefer this setup to the solid board options.

Some people have complained that the Trampolin still gives the bass a softer character and this is something I think the Trampolin/2 cures. Sonically it is one step back towards the Solid board, with a more distinct attack on each bass note and less "wobble" in the sub region. But the most important difference is that the music as a whole flows and swings better than with the old Trampolin.

It is not a night and day difference, but then the price is not that high either. I recommend it for all high-spec LP12's that don't sit on surfaces like Ikea Lack (where I suspect the Solid board still works better).
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Post by Linnofil »

lejonklou wrote:You have convinced me, Linnofil. I'm going to buy one. I thought the price was high but will probably think it's money well spent ... Can't resist taking it to the next level.
Sorry I've missed this post. So you have a Keel on order? Fantastic news!!! It's going to be great to hear your opinion. Have you heard it on an LP12 without Akiva? When will the Keel arrive? I'm 100% sure you will absolutely love it! I also thought the price was horrendous, but since I have heard it, I'm not so upset any more. It is actually money very well spent. Although I still think that Linn could have sold the Keel for half the amount and still made the same amount of money. (And made even more on goodwill, associated sales, happy customers infected with uppgraditis etc.)

The Keel price have actually created a lot of badwill for Linn. A bit weird since most other new expensive Linn products mostly created awe, silly dreams and a sense of pride in being a Linn owner for the traditional Linn customer. I think it is because the Keel is a product geared towards the traditional Linn customer instead of the CD12/Klimax/Artikulate range which are more focused on a new market of wealthy people who previously wasn't Linn owners.

Glad you're happy with the new Trampolin II. That is probably my next LP12 investment. Thanks for the reports!
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Post by Visoflex »

I'm new here, and this is my first post. However, I have just had the Keel and Trampolinn2 fitted. At the same time, my Akiva was replaced due to it nearing the end of its life. I've edited a report that I had pasted on another forum site, so apologies to those who may have seen it before.

It's difficult to put into words what one hears, as it tends to degenerate into audio cliche such as "made it sound broken", "it was if a veil was lifted" or "even my wife thought it sounded better".

Firstly, my LP12 is one that I had bought secondhand and upgraded to the current spec (excluding the bolted top plate) over 10 years. I was extremely happy with it, enjoying the well known Linn performance pace, rhythm and timing attributes, and would have continued to do so had these new items not been released. The Keel and Trampolinn push what we like about the LP12 further. I have also heard the Ekos SE, and it completes the upgrade, but currently I'm sticking at this level mainly for financial reasons. I have been fortunate enough to have spent something like 3 or 4 hours listening to the upgrades before deciding to go ahead. Many thanks to Colin Macey at Martin Kleiser (Elite retailer in Beaconsfield UK) for letting me do so.

The music session I had after picking up the deck, levelling it and balancing the arm included pieces by Smetana, Elgar, Andreas Vollenweider, Michael Hedges, Gene Harris, John Coltrane, Antonio Forcione, Acoustic Alchemy, John Williams and Julian Bream,. My findings are broadly:-

In the Smetana pieces, there are several slow sections where the cellos and basses are played pizzicato. The strings are plucked rather than bowed. Without the upgrade, it was not always obvious how the notes were being played. There was always a bass note, but it is now obvious that the string is being plucked, and this highlights the different feel to this part of the music. Again, with the cellos and basses, there is increased tonal separation between the instruments. You are aware that there is a collection of different instrument types (cellos and basses) playing, rather than an amorphous mass of the same type capable of playing a very low note.

At the other frequency extreme - cymbals. On certain jazz pieces, particularly where cymbals are struck rapidly, there was a tendency for two rapid hits to become slightly smeared into one longer strike. The timing of the piece becomes less easy to define. The rythmic ability of a really good drummer to give time to a band seems reduced. I once heard this described as the difference between an experienced drummer and a good music student (see what I meant about being difficult to describe!) With the Keel upgrade, it is now much easier to hear when you have two beats in close succession to each other. With this in mind, the rhythm becomes cleaner and more obvious in your head, making it easier to follow. If it is easier to follow, then it is easier to get immersed in the performance.
The difference between hearing a play being read, and seeing it performed if you will.

Those attributes are at the extremes of the frequency range. In the mid-range, where most of the action goes on, it is easier to separate and define what instruments are being played and how. The way a harp is being plucked, the tonal difference between a guitar and mandolin when being played simultaneously. A duet between a nylon stringed guitar and steel stringed guitar becomes easier to identify who's playing what. The LP12 always did give you the difference, it is just that now it becomes easier to define.

Whilst not in any way suggesting that the upgrade is cheap, there is no doubt that the increase in performance can be heard easily, and as the old saying goes "...the qulaity is remembered long after the price is forgotten".

- Viso
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Post by ThomasOK »

We just installed our first Keel, Ekos SE and Trampolin2 and my first comment is just WOW!

I have to clarify that by saying that the improvements were not what I was expecting. I did not hear the "this makes "B" sound broken like the Akiva or the Klimax Kontrol did - the improvement did not seem to be as big a slap in the face as those. But the improvements were quite substantial and VERY musical. It was certainly more tuneful and more precise rhythmically but it was also much more than that. The biggest difference I notice is that there is a tremendous amount more musical texture in every note played. When a finger is removed from a guitar string you hear the subtle change in the tone of the note and the ring of the string, when a small shaker is being played you can hear the different amount of force put into each shake and the emphasis it gives to certain strokes. This kind of difference is apparent with every instrument and voice whether playing singly or on a group. As Viso mentioned it is just much easier to hear who is playing what and how they are playing it and it pulls you into the music more. You can appreciate the contribution of every voice in a group of singers, even on synthesizer you can appreciate why they chose the sounds used and how they are being played.

I made my SO listen to the upgraded LP12. She told me she wasn't going to like it and I couldn't buy it, then I put on Norah Jones and she couldn't help but smile. We played several records and when I finished up with Dead Can Dance performing "The Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove" (from the excellent album "Into The Labyrinth") she said it sounds like a completely different album. She also said we could just end up pulling out records all night long if we didn't have other things we needed to do. Her last comment was "So I suppose this will be your next upgrade?"

In the store one of the other guys here was listening as I was doing some fine tuning. I played a Holly Cole track and when it ended he said he wasn't going to be able to listen to that cut again until he upgraded his LP12. He asked what percentage each upgrade contributed and my answer was Keel: 60%, Ekos SE: 35% Trampolin2: 5%. I did perform the upgrade in stages (which included a new Akiva to replace a worn Grado Reference) and the Keel is certainly the most important of the upgrades but they are all synergistic - they work together to take music reproduction to a whole new level. I also precision torqued all the bolts for the first time on this table. I believe that the customer is likely to be shocked at how wonderful it sounds when he gets it home.

While the upgrades certainly aren't cheap they are musically VERY wowrthwhile. I am already trying to figure out where I can pull the money from to make these upgrades my own.
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Post by lejonklou »

Visoflex: Welcome to the forum and thanks for that extensive and detailed review of the Keel and Trampolin/2!

It's funny that you start out with "I don't know how to say this" and then go deeply into what the upgrades have done, musically, to several pieces. Very informative and on such a high level that I feel the need to tell all the lurkers on this forum that it is also perfectly acceptable to write just 'Wow!' or 'Boo!'. :D

Thomas: If the Trampolin/2 is just 5%, then I really have something to look forward to, because I think the Trampolin upgrade has removed a blur in the bass region of my system and I am currently taking a dive into old records that I haven't played for many years.

Heard all 3 upgrades again (previous top LP12 versus current top LP12) the other week and it was very impressive...
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Post by Linnofil »

lejonklou wrote:Thomas: If the Trampolin/2 is just 5%, then I really have something to look forward to
Yes, indeed you have! That was my dealers impression to. The Keel was stunning and he felt that the Trampolin II was a very small (but noticeable) difference in comparison. More like the icing on the cake. So I think you are in for more late nights! In the short term not so good for the Lejonklou brand... But I think the Keel will improve the performance of your products in the future since you will have a new reference! I still look forward to your report. When will the Keel arrive?
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Post by lejonklou »

My Keel is coming next week...

Will report.

Happy easter holidays!
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Post by Linnofil »

I was at my dealer yesterday. The keel is still VERY impressing! :shock: When listening to Keel/Ekos SE/Klyde I got an almost unreal feeling. (First time I heard the Keel with Ekos SE/MC, Akito 2b/Adikt before.)

It feels like someone is pulling your leg with a practical joke. It feels like someone has a mastertape playing on a very good 1" track machine behind the wall and just pretending to play on the LP12. I had to walk up to the LP12 and lift the arm just to get back to reality. But even tough the Keel/Ekos SE sounded unreal, I was (of course) very much in the reality! I kept looking at the LP12 playing and just sat there smiling. It didn't sound at all like an LP12, it was SO damn GOOD!

I really wish I had £5000 to spare, but unfortunately I don't, and that is a reality! You are in for some very good times ahead Fredrik. Please report back when you have your first impressions.
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Post by teatime »

If everything goes according to plan, I'm getting mine tomorrow! :D
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Post by lejonklou »

Is it good, teatime? :wink:

Installed one yesterday, but unfortunately not in my own LP12. The difference was very big.

In a way, I think that the LP12-Keel sounds like it has gotten the best aspects of the CD medium added to the already high quality vinyl sound. Gone is the fat bass (that I somehow thought was a part of the vinyl records themselves) and in its place there is c l a r i t y. Every note seems to be reproduced individually, as opposed to everything being mixed together on an LP12-Cirkus.

Hard to describe... but a very big improvement indeed.
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Post by teatime »

lejonklou wrote:Is it good, teatime? :wink:
Indeed it is! Quite superbly so. :D

I can't really say anything profound about it that hasn't been said before. I think I understand what you mean with "...it has gotten the best aspects of the CD medium added.." and I agree. It sounds solid for lack of a better word, and very far from muddled.

I am very happy I bought it. :mrgreen:
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