Linn Sneaky Music DS Network Music Player

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Post by lejonklou »

I think you are right about performance differences, Azazello. Your example is quite good - now that we have many other references, the gap between Ikemi and CD12 feels very big. But I think part of this is in our minds, something we create in order to structure our complicated world.

The only difference that really matters to me is the one I hear when directly comparing two units. Right then and there, I can say whether I think the difference is big and important. But it's very difficult to extrapolate this experience to make it valid for other units (If B is better than A, and C is much better than both, is B closer to A or C? etc).

Oh, yes: Welcome Klinnsmann!
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Post by Azazello »

Still no one who has compared Sneaky DS to CD12?
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Post by ThomasOK »

Just last week I finally had a chance to listen to a DS unit for the first time. I have to say that I am very impressed. Of course I've heard how good they are from any number of people with ears I trust (including several on here) but there is nothing like hearing one for yourself.

The unit I listened to was a Sneaky DS I sold to a customer. After spending some 40 man hours getting it to work with our ReadyNAS and our archaic Windows notebook we hooked it up through a Majik I into some Vienna speakers (since they were there) and compared it to the Majik CD. There was no question it totaled the Majik CD - just a much more musical performance in every way. So we then brought in the Akurate CD and compared it with the Sneaky DS and our findings pretty much mirrored Fredrik's. The Sneaky was definitely the more enjoyable with a better flow and a more natural, analog kind of sound. One of the other salesmen and I found that the chimes on "Time" form "Dark Side of the Moon" by Pink Floyd actually caused us to wince at high levels with the Akurate CD whereas they were fine with the Sneaky DS. (Of course, "Dark Side of the Moon" should only be played on vinyl anyway!) The Akurate did sound somewhat more controlled but it certainly wasn't as much fun, and it was easier to follow the music on the Sneaky DS.

In view of what I heard I have to say that the Sneaky DS is outstanding value for money. Even when you take into account the cost of a decent NAS, switch, WAP and a controller it still comes in about half the price of the Akurate CD. Based on what I heard I have little doubt that the Majik DS is likely superior to the CD12 as Linn seem to claim. I think I see a Majik DS in my near future. And I'm sure we will have DS units on demo as soon as the latest batch of controller software makes it to market (still waiting for better control and connection with Macs and iPhone/iPod Touch).
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Post by Linnofil »

ThomasOK wrote:The Akurate did sound somewhat more controlled but it certainly wasn't as much fun, and it was easier to follow the music on the Sneaky DS.
...
I think I see a Majik DS in my near future.
I also agree with your findings. I like the Sneaky DS more than the Akurate CD, the music is clearly better on the DS.

But I really would like to recommend the Akurate DS, much better than the Majik DS and more in line with your other stuff. Personally I think that there is a bigger difference going from Majik DS to Akurate DS than from Sneaky DS to Majik DS. But I can't imagine you buying any DS player without listening to them all first. :D
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Post by Charlie1 »

Linnofil wrote:Personally I think that there is a bigger difference going from Majik DS to Akurate DS than from Sneaky DS to Majik DS. But I can't imagine you buying any DS player without listening to them all first. Very Happy
Have you compared the Akurate with Klimax DS - If so, is there a great difference there too?
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Post by lejonklou »

I have and think it's big. The Akurate impresses but the Klimax just plays effortlessly. Very difficult to go back and feel completely satisfied.

I feel that Linn have really done a thorough and good job on these four models. Both in terms of sound quality and how each model compares to the next. It's really a gradual improvement of the sound.
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Post by Music Lover »

I find the Sneaky DS being as musical as Unidisk 1.1 = WELL DONE Linn!
That with the original firmware, the later ones are likely a LOT better (likely as I havn't heard Sneaky with the updated firmware)

Each other DS unit is better in all aspects, but the performance enhancement Akurate DS --> Klimax DS is harder to describe.
Where Akurate DS is upbeat and have a lot of PRaT, Klimax is not as impressive.
It just IS!
So smooth, so real, so effortless. Like the "real" thing.

Klimax is on another level. The only player that have the best from digital and analogue.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Charlie1 »

Interesting to hear your comments on how the DSs differ.

On a slightly different note, I was reading about the new Naim HDX last night and can't help wondering if Linn should have gone down that route. It certainly seems a lot more straight forward than the Linn method. It has two hard disks and backs up from one to the other overnight, so all the backup worries are taken care of for you. You just stick in a CD and it starts ripping straight away - easy. You can connect to a router for Internet downloads if you want, but computer networking isn't essential.

I can see the HDX method being more accessible to those who are not that IT literate or just can't be bothered with all the networking/NAS stuff etc. I think the DS products are a bridge too far for many people (or should that be a 'router too far' :roll: <- IT joke, not very funny), although maybe that will change over time as everyone gets more used to music played off computer.

It does seem that there are plenty of enthusiasts buying into the DS machines as the sonic benefits are outweighed by the negatives. I'm just not so sure about other types of Linn customer. I can see non-enthusiasts realising that CD players can be bettered or decide they want to move across to hard disk storage of their music, but won't see the DS as a neat or easy solution.
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Post by Music Lover »

Charlie1 wrote: I was reading about the new Naim HDX last night and can't help wondering if Linn should have gone down that route. It certainly seems a lot more straight forward than the Linn method.
More straight forward YES, a neat & easy solution YES - but also a dead end!
- not open standards
- inbuilt CDdrive (soon obsolete and disturb the sensitive DAC)
- inbuilt HDD (see above)
- all these extra moving stuff makes support difficult long term


That DS support the open standard UPnP, is important.

HDX have some advantages. Naim has been able to optimize ripping/HDD performance. I know how much that can affect the sonic result.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by ThomasOK »

I understand your comments, Linnofil, and I certainly can see your recommendation. My thinking about the Majik DS is more to do with practicality than it really is about matching my system since to really match my system I would need a Klimax DS. And I'm sure that the Klimax DS has that certain musical "rightness" that seems to be part of being a Klimax as both Music Lover and Fredrik indicate.

But there are other considerations, not the least of which is finances. I don't really have big reserves of ready cash just waiting for me to buy another Klimax product. :( Beyond that, however, is the fact that I am a vinyl guy, first and foremost. I use my Ikemi so little I would hardly notice if it was gone. The main reason I have never lusted after a CD12 is that despite how good it sounds my LP12 is still much better - so that's where I put my money. The cost of the CD12 can cover a number of Akiva styli. :)

As good as the DS products are I still really doubt that an LP ripped from my LP12SE in 24/96 format and played on a DS will sound as good as just playing the vinyl. I can't see how it could with all that extra stuff and conversions in the chain. And I haven't yet heard anyone claim that it can. So I expect that I will continue to play 98% plus of my music off the licorice pizzas. That said it is hard to justify $18,500+ for 2% of my listening.

However, if I can still get a decent sum for my late-model Ikemi, the cost of the Majik DS will be well within range. Since this will likely give me musical quality beyond that of a CD12, I would have digital music reproduction well beyond anything I had ever expected to have in my home. A huge improvement over the Ikemi for a minimal outlay - especially as I already have a very powerful computer with room for lots of storage (makes me wonder why I haven't put the Ikemi up for sale already :wink: ).

If I find out that I am switching more and more of my listening to the DS over time I can always upgrade later (like when I'm a little more flush) and since the Majik DS is relatively reasonable I wouldn't get hurt too bad, if at all, by the trade. I'm sure I will have the opportunity to hear all the DS units over time so I might change my mind if I get really blown away by one of the better units. But for now the Majik DS makes the most sense to me.
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Post by Linnofil »

Charlie1 wrote:Have you compared the Akurate with Klimax DS - If so, is there a great difference there too?
Yes, unfortunately... :( The Klimax DS is a lot better than the Akurate DS, maybe as the step from Sneaky DS to Akurate DS? It's difficult to describe as the Klimax is very different in sound, actually quite like vinyl in its presentation. Very smooth, very relaxed and so very right! The sound of the Akurate DS is more edgy (in comparison) and has more Rock'n'Roll, attack etc. (And distorsion?) Going back to the Akurate DS from a Klimax DS makes you wonder how you could like the Akurate DS in the first place... That is a bit sad (for me) since the Klimax DS is (way) out of my range. I'm at the moment struggling to find the money for a (still absolutely stunning, better than CD12 etc.) Akurate DS. Anybody want to buy a really good Majik Kontrol? :D

Thomas, I didn't mean any disrespect of your system by not suggesting the Klimax DS. :wink: As it's (as you note) more in line with your other system. I was just respecting your wallet! I understand your resoning around LP vs. digital. But I still recommend the Akurate DS! :D

I have the same problem at home. Even with a more modest LP12 than yours (Former "top" except Adikt, with no SE stuff, except Trampolin2.) I have a problem with playing stuff on the Klimax DS (at my dealer) that I have and play on the LP12 at home. The trick is, as you know, not to have the same music on CD as on LP.

I still have four times as many LP's than I have CD's. And I also buy more (used) LP's then I buy CD's. My wife plays almost no LP's and with small kids it's really practical with CD's. CD is also a medium that I can control from my Knekt zones. So at my house there is about 50/50 for LP/CD. My guess is that a Akurate DS will shift that to 30/70 for LP/DS with long playlists running all day. For a while at least, until the "Daddys got a new toy" feeling is replaced by common (LP12) sense! :mrgreen: (To bad the Akurate DS doesn't have the remote loop for Knekt... :cry: :evil: )
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Post by ThomasOK »

Linnofil wrote: Thomas, I didn't mean any disrespect of your system by not suggesting the Klimax DS. :wink: As it's (as you note) more in line with your other system. I was just respecting your wallet! I understand your resoning around LP vs. digital. But I still recommend the Akurate DS! :D

I have the same problem at home. Even with a more modest LP12 than yours (Former "top" except Adikt, with no SE stuff, except Trampolin2.) I have a problem with playing stuff on the Klimax DS (at my dealer) that I have and play on the LP12 at home. The trick is, as you know, not to have the same music on CD as on LP.
No offense taken.:) I will try and have a listen to both the Majik and Akurate DS units before I make a final decision although finances, or rather lack of, may rule the day. (I'd like the government to give me just a little $500,000US bail-out. :mrgreen: Out of the $700 billion it should hardly be missed!)

I do own some of the same music on both CD an LP as I need CDs for demoing in the store and I do play them in the car once in a while. But I NEVER play a CD at home if I have the LP of the music. Once in a while I listen to some music in my home office off the computer but I really don't find it very satisfying. I also bought a Squeezebox Duet just to get my feet wet with the digital streaming stuff and to try out internet radio but I hardly listen to that either. There's just not enough music there to hold my interest. Considering my turntable/phono stage/preamp setup you might say I am a bit spoiled. :wink:
Linnofil wrote:I still have four times as many LP's than I have CD's. And I also buy more (used) LP's then I buy CD's. My wife plays almost no LP's and with small kids it's really practical with CD's. CD is also a medium that I can control from my Knekt zones. So at my house there is about 50/50 for LP/CD. My guess is that a Akurate DS will shift that to 30/70 for LP/DS with long playlists running all day. For a while at least, until the "Daddys got a new toy" feeling is replaced by common (LP12) sense! :mrgreen: (To bad the Akurate DS doesn't have the remote loop for Knekt... :cry: :evil: )


I'd say I have more like 20 times as many LPs as I have CDs. If I like the music enough to want to own it I will buy it on LP if it is available. If I like it enough and it is not on vinyl (Mino Cinelu comes immediately to mind) then I will buy the CD.

Since you make use of the Knekt multi-zone system I wonder why you are not considering the Akurate Music Server? As a matter of fact I've wondered why the AMS hasn't come up for discussion here much. Has anybody heard it compared to the DS units? I'm sure it wouldn't compete with the Klimax DS but is it as good as or better than the Akurate DS? Another thing that makes me curious about it is the fact that it has a CD drive built in for ripping. It seems this would make it a simpler setup if it handles the ripping and tagging automatically like it should. And one would hope that the rips it makes would be at least as good as any other way of doing it, if not better. Has anyone tried using one for ripping?
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Post by vicdiaz »

ThomasOK wrote: I'd like the government to give me just a little $500,000US bail-out. :mrgreen: Out of the $700 billion it should hardly be missed!


Like an old dog waiting for his owner, I'm waiting for mine, even though if split evenly betwee all U.S. residents the math says that it's only $2,121.21 per person ($700B / 330 million persons)...

:cry:
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Post by Linnofil »

ThomasOK wrote:I NEVER play a CD at home if I have the LP of the music. Once in a while I listen to some music in my home office off the computer but I really don't find it very satisfying. I also bought a Squeezebox Duet just to get my feet wet with the digital streaming stuff and to try out internet radio but I hardly listen to that either. There's just not enough music there to hold my interest. Considering my turntable/phono stage/preamp setup you might say I am a bit spoiled. :wink:
Well, I think I can fully understand you point. And you ARE spoiled with that amazing LP source you have! A great example of correct priorities. :D As a litte tip I have heard that the Duet is lot worse than the pretty decent SB3/Classic. But I still don't reccomend the SB3 to someone with good sources. It's just not good enough. (But it is amazing value for money, if you already own a NAS.) I have an SB3 running from a PC at home for the same purpouse as yours, so it's based on own experience. It's a lot worse than a Majik CD and not as good as the Movie Di. Bad music from inferior sources are just confusing for the brain and has a negative effect on your wellbeing. So I understand that you turn it of after trying to have it on! (As most people with standard japanese "hifi" do!)
ThomasOK wrote:Since you make use of the Knekt multi-zone system I wonder why you are not considering the Akurate Music Server? As a matter of fact I've wondered why the AMS hasn't come up for discussion here much. Has anybody heard it compared to the DS units? I'm sure it wouldn't compete with the Klimax DS but is it as good as or better than the Akurate DS? Another thing that makes me curious about it is the fact that it has a CD drive built in for ripping. It seems this would make it a simpler setup if it handles the ripping and tagging automatically like it should. And one would hope that the rips it makes would be at least as good as any other way of doing it, if not better. Has anyone tried using one for ripping?
This was discussed a while ago on the swedish forum. A friend of mine wanting to build a Knektsystem was very interested in buing an Akurate MS. It looked like a really good deal. Eight stereo feeds of "Akurate" performance with good (best?) ripping for only 50% more than the single source Akurate DS! But when he contacted Linn support about the performance level, he got the reply that it was "on Ikemi level". ??? No wonder it looks like a dead product! It is, as I understand, a direct replacement for the Kivor Index. Advantadges are slightly better performance, different GUI(?), external drives and lower price. So it is an obvious improvement on the Index, but that doesn't matter to me! I'd rather have one good source than 6 sources on Ikemi level. (I have an Intersekt R8S8 and the Pekin and LP12 take two of the eight avaliable channels.) I can get 6 Sneaky DS for the same price as one Akurate MS and get better performance for the same money! I don't even need 6 channels, so for me it would be even cheaper. No wonder no one have heard the Akurate MS...

I wonder if the DS technology was born from the the search for a Kivor replacement with external storage. Maybe the Akurate MS was Gilads first experimental project in the "safe" Kivor area? And while there he stumbled upon the avalaible performance levels leading to the Klimax DS? A wild theory, but at least it would explain the existence (and the performance level) of the Akurate MS.

I would be very interested if anyone have heard the Akurate MS, especially if it's directly compared with any of the DS players. The ripping abilities of a Akurate MS compared to a very good PC setup is equally interesting!

I still hope that the information from Linns helpline about the "Ikemi level" performance was completely wrong! It has happend before...
And I'm still upset by the fact that the remote loop is non existent on the DS products! :twisted:
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