Preamps with DSs

[donuk]

I know this is a longstanding discussion but I continue it because of its topicality.

We know that Linn are stopping production of them; we also know Mr L is producing world class preamplifiers.

We also know that Linn are giving publicity to their decisions. We are also aware that many of our friends on the Linn forum do not prefer a digital volume control, and are struggling to accept what Linn are saying.

My own view for what it may be worth is this:
I understand Linn's arguments, and, yes, there are graphs to back things up.
And I would really like to reduce the number of boxes in my system.
But I still prefer my ADS/1 when it goes through my Majik Kontrol.

So what does this Forum's members make of what is going on?
Don sunny downtown York....

[Ozzzy189]

Less boxes isn't always more music. In this instance less boxes is less music. If you prefer your mk the Fred's mono pre's will leave you staggered.
I'm at work so will post something in more detail in due course but for now all I will say is...
Graphs, papers and fancy equations mean nothing to me, just use your trusted ears my good friend.
See you soon.
Daniel

[Chapelier]

I think the logic behind Linn's decision is rather simple.

A DS sounds better with a preamp, everyone agrees on that.. and I don't think that the people at Linn are thinking differently. Although, if you are to buy a DS + a Kontrol, then it is best to buy a DSM. Hence the reason why they probably don't sell much preamps anymore. And if you buy just a DS, not a DSM, it's probably because you want to pair it with a competitor's preamp, like a Sagatun or some tubes..!

[donuk]

With respect Champelier, this is not my understanding of what Linn are saying.
Just this week, Keith Robertson answered a specific question:

"I think the question is: if you don't need other inputs, then is the best volume control/pre-amp for a DS the DS itself."

"Yes."

It seems clear to me. What I am troubled about is that, unless I manage to convince myself otherwise, I like what SPACE does to the music, but not so keen about the internal volume control on my ADS/1. Which leaves me a bit unsettled. After all what is SPACE if not a sophisticated non-linear pre-set volume control?

An interesting debate in interesting times. Can anybody point me to a reasoned debate about why analogue volume controls might be better? Certainly our ears should be the dividing factor, but it is nice to know why.

Perplexed, Don, sunny downtown York

[anthony]

With respect Champelier, this is not my understanding of what Linn are saying.
Just this week, Keith Robertson answered a specific question:

"I think the question is: if you don't need other inputs, then is the best volume control/pre-amp for a DS the DS itself."

"Yes."

It seems clear to me. What I am troubled about is that, unless I manage to convince myself otherwise, I like what SPACE does to the music, but not so keen about the internal volume control on my ADS/1. Which leaves me a bit unsettled. After all what is SPACE if not a sophisticated non-linear pre-set volume control?

An interesting debate in interesting times. Can anybody point me to a reasoned debate about why analogue volume controls might be better? Certainly our ears should be the dividing factor, but it is nice to know why.

Perplexed, Don, sunny downtown York

Have a dem of the volume on an ADS2 then decide whether you need a preamp, it is much better than the ADS1.
You can still use space on ads1, when a separate pre is used.

[Spannko]

I know this is a bit of a long shot, but is it possible that people who have heard the internal pre-amp (and not liked it) have been listening to a pre-amp section which has not been fully run in? I only thought about this last night, and if true, I could be in this category. When I've compared, the demo has always lasted all of 30 seconds before I have to switch back to using a pre-amp. Therefore, the digital VC section never gets a chance to fully run in.

My DS is less than a week old, so now is a good time for me to test my theory. I'll run the DS in with the DVC permanently switched on for a couple of weeks and see if it makes a difference.

[lejonklou]

Don
This might be of interest as a theoretical explanation: http://www.esstech.com/pdf/digital-vs-a ... ontrol.pdf

Spannko
There is no "pre amp section" when a digital volume control is used. It is just the DAC being fed with a recalculated digital signal. So there is nothing to warm up.

[donuk]

Thank you Fredrik, and happy Sweden National day today........

[Music Lover]

I think the logic behind Linn's decision is rather simple.

A DS sounds better with a preamp, everyone agrees on that.. and I don't think that the people at Linn are thinking differently.

Sadly they do.

[Chapelier]

Well if they do.. it is indeed sad.

I also have an ADS/1. I know this is not the latest version, but running my DS straight into a power amplifier is not a fun experience. Space ain't very fun either. I've wasted more time trying to make it sound good than actually enjoying it. At some point I almost wanted to get rid of my DS because of all the frustrations. Then one day, I decided to leave it off, plug back my preamp, and just listen!

[Charlie1]

Don
This might be of interest as a theoretical explanation: http://www.esstech.com/pdf/digital-vs-a ... ontrol.pdf

thanks for posting that Fredrik. It was a nice and clear presentation.

[stefan]

I think the logic behind Linn's decision is rather simple.

A DS sounds better with a preamp, everyone agrees on that.. and I don't think that the people at Linn are thinking differently.

Sadly they do.

According to my dealer, Linn claims that the new ADSM (with Exakt links and analog outputs) will perform better on its own, directly to a poweramp, than through a Klimax Kontrol.
I own a KK/1/D and yesterday I took this new ADSM home for a trial. So I did try this and all I can say is that it doesn't, quite far from it. I'm very sure that NOBODY who heard this comparison would think otherwise.
So, why would Linn claim this? But the ADSM is not bad, doubt that a MK would better it or even the AK/1.

This new ADSM is an excellent product. It's much better than my own ADS/1 as a DS player. The MM phono stage is very good. The optical input are better than the one in my Oppo 105. I'm definitely going to upgrade to this one. But I see no need for them to claim something that clearly is not true in order to selling me one. I mean, can anyone at Linn really be of that opinion? I get 10% off if I trade in a preamp. I'll give them one but it won't be my KK.

[tokenbrit]

So, why would Linn claim this?

Analogue preamps undermine their marketing...

[Chapelier]

According to my dealer, Linn claims that the new ADSM (with Exakt links and analog outputs) will perform better on its own, directly to a poweramp, than through a Klimax Kontrol.

Perhaps it's a flashing red light saying you shouldn't trust your dealer. I can live with the idea that an ADSM sounds better alone than thru an AK, but a KK?!

[stefan]

According to my dealer, Linn claims that the new ADSM (with Exakt links and analog outputs) will perform better on its own, directly to a poweramp, than through a Klimax Kontrol.

Perhaps it's a flashing red light saying you shouldn't trust your dealer. I can live with the idea that an ADSM sounds better alone than thru an AK, but a KK?!

Note, that's Linns claims, not the dealers (he hasn't heard this). Do he believe this? Don't know really. We had no discussions, no point until I tried it. But we will...

[Chapelier]

Wow, well the more I read about it, the more I'm astonished!

I thought they only meant that the digital volume in the DSM is better left alone, without using a preamp, but it seems like they're saying that any DS sounds better (either Akurate or Klimax level) without a preamp.

What is even more surprising is that they are saying their DVC implementation is the same in every version of DS they did, the only difference is the quality of the DAC. So basically, it means their DACs are now so good (since the /2 upgrade) you won't need a preamp. Now that's an interesting marketing line!

[lejonklou]

I own a KK/1/D and yesterday I took this new ADSM home for a trial. So I did try this and all I can say is that it doesn't, quite far from it. I'm very sure that NOBODY who heard this comparison would think otherwise.

I've done the same demo with a new ADS (is that called ADS/2?) and the two of us who listened felt the same way as you mention: NOBODY who heard this could possibly think that the digital volume is better! There was simply nothing superior in it. Not more precise, not more dynamic, not any cleaner, more fun or tuneful. Just worse in every aspect. Putting the preamp back in was a relief.

It is very much a question of 'Simply better' and 'Just Listen'.

[Music Lover]

ADS/2 should be the correct name. And the Pre you compared with was KK version ??

[lejonklou]

ADS/2 should be the correct name. And the Pre you compared with was KK version ??

I am not 100% sure. I think KK/1, no power switch below the front.

[matss]

This might be of interest as a theoretical explanation: http://www.esstech.com/pdf/digital-vs-a ... ontrol.pdf

If I'm not misled that presentation also explains how ESS (and Linn uses the same architecture) manages to achieve a digital volume control of better or comparable performance to a really good analog volume control. Or have I missed something?

BR, mats

[ThomasOK]

This might be of interest as a theoretical explanation: http://www.esstech.com/pdf/digital-vs-a ... ontrol.pdf

If I'm not misled that presentation also explains how ESS (and Linn uses the same architecture) manages to achieve a digital volume control of better or comparable performance to a really good analog volume control. Or have I missed something?

BR, mats

I think you have missed something, and there are a few things that should be considered in this argument. First, the presentation states at its conclusion:

"Exquisitely well designed analog volume controls can still beat even the very best internal digital volume controls if they have a lower noise floor than the DAC itself." I would certainly say that the volume controls on the Sagatuns are "exquisitely designed" as are those of the KK/1 and /2. I don't see ESS stating anywhere that a digital volume control can achieve "better or comparable performance" to an analog control. Indeed they state the digital volume control ""will behave just like the analog one" until it reaches the noise floor of the DAC. This indicates that AT ITS BEST it will behave as well as an analog control and they still put a limitation on that. This is quite different than the Linn statement that the digital volume control is superior to analog as it is "lossless".

Second, note that this discussion is really about measured noise floors and how they change with a digital volume control. It assumes that if the noise floor is low enough on a digital volume control the advantage of an analog volume control would be lost. But this leaves out two things - that there is no signal below the noise floor on digital whereas there can be on analog, and that the quality of the noise is likely quite different on an analog volume control rather than a digital one as will be the quality of any distortions introduced. These could both have an effect on how musical the volume control is.

I also question the statement that "ESS (and Linn uses the same architecture)". Linn uses the Wolfson WM874x series DACs, not an ESS. It might have a similar architecture, and it is likely to be running the digital volume control at 32 bits, but that does not make the architecture the same.

Note the final slide of the presentation says:
"Analog still better?
In fact, yes it is.
– As long as the analog volume control has a noise floor better than the DAC noise floor, the analog one will win."

[lejonklou]

I admit to hesitating for a long time before I posted that link. Why? Because its focus is entirely technical and my focus is entirely musical.

While some technology is essential for making good HiFi, it's important to remember that regarding most things, our understanding is seriously limited. I remember being asked the following question during a demo:

"Of all the details that together make one of your products, how many would you say that you really understand? And how many are a mystery and you use them simply because they work?"

To which I replied: "50 - 50"

I think I was being a bit cocky when stating those numbers, because when I later contemplated the question, I thought of how many things I don't really understand. I rather follow a pattern that appears to makes sense and rhyme with previous experience. My answer should have been that there's far more that I use because it works than what I really understand.

So when studying the graphs of distortion and noise, think for a second about the musical qualities of a vinyl record played on an LP12. The graphs you get from measuring that terribly lossy source, the LP12, are annihilated by those of almost any digital source. The vinyl is noisy, distorted, it shouldn't stand a chance. And yet when we listen to it, it's so musical, enjoyable and convincing that it leaves most digital sources in the dust.

How do we handle this apparent contradiction? One way is to trust the graphs and doubt our ears. We're probably fond of distortion and not yet used to accurate reproduction. To those of you who are convinced this is the case: You are on the wrong forum.

Another way is to trust our ears and regard the graphs with sceptical curiosity. Because what is the purpose of our HiFi system? To make our lives more enjoyable!

[Chapelier]

"Because what is the purpose of our HiFi system? To make our lives more enjoyable!"

Amen to that!

[matss]

First, the presentation states at its conclusion:
"Exquisitely well designed analog volume controls can still beat even the very best internal digital volume controls if they have a lower noise floor than the DAC itself." I would certainly say that the volume controls on the Sagatuns are "exquisitely designed" as are those of the KK/1 and /2. I don't see ESS stating anywhere that a digital volume control can achieve "better or comparable performance" to an analog control. Indeed they state the digital volume control ""will behave just like the analog one" until it reaches the noise floor of the DAC. This indicates that AT ITS BEST it will behave as well as an analog control and they still put a limitation on that.

Linn just published a white paper displaying how they reach 8 dB lower noise floor on the KDSM/1 digital volume control, than what they have been able to achieve in the KK. The volume control in KDSM/1 will behave just like an analog one down to the noise floor of the KK, and then continues for 8 more decibels. Whether that makes a better performance is up for our ears to decide. Just out of interest, what is the comparable noise floor in the Sagatun?

Second, note that this discussion is really about measured noise floors and how they change with a digital volume control. It assumes that if the noise floor is low enough on a digital volume control the advantage of an analog volume control would be lost. But this leaves out two things - that there is no signal below the noise floor on digital whereas there can be on analog, and that the quality of the noise is likely quite different on an analog volume control rather than a digital one as will be the quality of any distortions introduced. These could both have an effect on how musical the volume control is.

This is interesting. Could you please help me with stated facts or research where it is shown how we are able to hear any information below the noise floor? I'm eager to understand more about this.

I also question the statement that "ESS (and Linn uses the same architecture)". Linn uses the Wolfson WM874x series DACs, not an ESS. It might have a similar architecture, and it is likely to be running the digital volume control at 32 bits, but that does not make the architecture the same.

Sorry for being Swedish and misusing the word architecture. I'm fully aware of that Linn uses Wolfson for DACs and not ESS. I was referring to extending the word length and adding dithering in order not to loose any information in the digital volume control. Maybe technique should have been a better wording.

BR, mats

[moog_man]

Forum member, Bugi666 has just posted a very interesting - and entertaining - review of a recent audition between KDS/1 and KDS/2, with and without a KK/1 on Linn's DS forum. I've pulled the section that I feel is most relevant to this discussion. (Worth noting that the KDS/2 is fairly new and may benefit from more running in time)

I think it's the time to do other test we both wanted to do. KDS2 vs KDS2 + KK1D.

This part of the test is straight forward. We play some song for a minute, at volume 60, with preamp still in line. Then Paul removes KK from the circuit, and plays music back on. He didn't started at volume 60 however, for some reason KDS2 starts at 30, but Paul instantly adjusts the volume. Wow! Wow! Wow! I shout. Switch this darn thing off!!!! Jeeeeeeez! Ooooooofffff!!!! No. Wait. Turn it down to 30 first. Paul does it, and I just say - kill it, kill it quickly please.
Reason why I'm shouting this is - the sound coming from KDS2, compared to KDS2+KK is simply... unbearable. At volume of 60 sounds just boring, flat and ... dark. Lots of details are lost, soundstage shrank to half the size and it just doesn't sound right. At volume 30... I'd rather not to comment, as I'd be forced to use words which are not constitutionally allowed. And I think it's a bit unfair as well. We should really do this test first, but try to do the KDS2 on its own, and then add KK to line. I think if I haven't heard the combo, I would say the KDS2 is a mighty fine unit. Which I think it is, in the same way the KDS1 is. It's a world class streamer. Full stop. Just a streamer. It ain't a preamp. It's a world class streamer. As much as others might disagree, I will stick to that. I listen to music at volumes between 30-55 most of the time, and at 30 the digital volume control transforms great sounding system to something you just want to switch off. Not to "just listen".

Back to KDS2 + KK1D. Ohhhh. Sanity is restored.

NB. Red highlight is mine