Just listen!

[beck]

The headline stolen from the Linn forum and from Linn just to underline that listening to hifi should be simple.
Sitting today listening to Beatles in mono reminds me that I do not miss stereo at all. I just go with the flow of music.
So a truly musical hifi system is the one where you play music in mono and stereo without thinking that you are missing out on something or?

[donuk]

This is particularly true of early Beatles, where the "stereo" was so naff, e.g. instruments on one side and voices on the other.
Point well made though in my experience.

I grew up with a homemade amplifier, using 6V6s, driving one large 10 inch speaker in a large padded box.
I had to go some distance along the hifi trail until I got something as enjoyable.

It would be nice to have a mono switch on preamplifiers and / or DSs for some of these old recordings. Needless to say unless each channel is totally separated, then phase differences can cause muddying of the sound. Perhaps creating Tune-dumb. (claiming world copyright on this method).

Don sunny downtown York

[Briain]

Hi

I know that KK does have a mono function built into it, but I don't recall how you toggle it on and off. From memory, there was a mono button on that hideously complex remote that they once supplied (REM019), but I don't know if it can be toggled via the current 'Slimline' remote (maybe there's some combination of button presses to do it)? At some point, I will review the on-line documentation for the Slimline remote and see if it even mentions the mono function (it's maybe something that they just abandoned).

Bri

[ThomasOK]

Yes, the KK has a Mono button. No, you can't access it from the slimline remote. It's not the only thing you can't access from the slimline remote. I recently had a customer purchase a Majik-I. When he got it home he called and asked how to tell the Record output what input to use. The instructions told him how to do it with the "hideously complex" (I am in full agreement) REM019 but not how to do it with the slimline remote. I checked my info and found the same thing. In addition I found there was also no way to create a default for record out in the setup menus. So I sent an email to the Linn helpline asking them how to access those functions with the slimline remote. Their answer is that there was no way and they were sending us a free REM 019 to give to the customer so he could get it to work! I asked why Linn couldn't just program the Majik-I so the default setting was that Record out automatically followed the selected source to listen to as that would solve the problem for most people. They replied that it sounded like a good idea and they would pass it on to engineering.

Another customer who recently bought a KK also ran into a problem as the balance was off and he couldn't get it right. That's correct, the slimline remote also doesn't seem to support balance functions. The solution? Get him an REM 019 with the zillion buttons so he can access Mono and Balance functions.

Of course, Linn has now discontinued the KK, AK and Majik-I so that clears up some of the problems. On the other hand the Majik DSM and Akurate DSM we have on display both have balance capability with no way to access it from the slimline remote. So the problem lingerson. Anyone sense a lack of forethought?

[donuk]

Of course you will know this, Thomas, far better than I, but I throw this in just to continue the discussion.
If you have a Linn preamplifier connected to a network, say by a DS, it is possible to adjust the balance via Konfig.

For most people I suspect this will be fine. Set once, and forget is what I imagine most folk would want to do. But I may be wrong. So that is OK - providing all the world is going digital and you do not have analogue only inputs! Which this thread may be prophesying from the Linn perspective.

So folks, you might as well buy a DS, just to adjust the balance.

What I find surprising is that top preamplifiers like the Naim 552 have a balance control as large as the volume control.

Or is there a breed of listener who constantly wants to shift the soundstage?

Don sunny downtown York.

PS Thomas, if your ears were burning last Wednesday, it would have been caused by us at the Lejonklou northern demo at Ozzzie's house. We unanimously agreed that you are a deeply knowledgeable and thorough correspondent on all that is best in Hifi. Keep up the good work.....

[Ozzzy189]

Eagerly awaiting your thoughts on last Wednesday evening don. Praise, critique or anything you'd like to see done differently etc?

[Music Lover]

Am I alone in this? I have never adjusted the balance during my 30+ years of listening of music. And if I listen off-center, it is what is is. I care about the music not the stereo perspective.

[hcl]

Am I alone in this? I have never adjusted the balance during my 30+ years of listening of music. And if I listen off-center, it is what is is. I care about the music not the stereo perspective.

You are not alone in this. The only time I have used the balance is to determine if somethong was wrong or for some other investigational reason.

[ThomasOK]

Am I alone in this? I have never adjusted the balance during my 30+ years of listening of music. And if I listen off-center, it is what is is. I care about the music not the stereo perspective.

You are not alone in this. The only time I have used the balance is to determine if somethong was wrong or for some other investigational reason.

I agree as well. I have only used balance when I need to just listen to one channel to check something. I have also found that if I am sitting off-center using the balance control doesn't help. It somehow messes up the music-probably by changing phase relationship or something similar.

Thanks Don for the flattery. Sunny downtown York has just sent a little sunshine here!

[Efraim roots]

I use a Naim nac 52 that "have a balance control as large as the volume control". I must think that this is no coincidence. Naim mostly motivates it by saying it is for compensating channel imbalance on low listening levels. Then of course you have the aspects that hcl brings up, it's a good tool in certain situations to diagnose problems or such. I have also noticed that the better Naim preamps don't have a fixed null point. What I believe is that setting balance by ear in this configuration may give some benefits, at least it's been part of the Naim way of doing things. Remember the balance on Nait 1? I, like ThomasOK, also thinks that balance mess up the music if it's not set properly. I would add that minimal steps make big (well, relatively) difference musically with many Naim preamps.

[jewa]

I feel being centered just feels unnatural, the thing with a good Linn installation is to get the room playing and it sound pretty much good everywhere, even from the other room. This is what is different compared to traditional hifi with speakers away from every wall, listening triangle and all that stuff ;)

[hcl]

A good system correctly installed sounds amazing wherever you are in the room or even outside the room from where the hifi is.

Back to the thread topic. "Just listen" should really be used more often, by all and possibly by the designers of hifi most of all. From what I understand the minute the designer bases his design on an idea of what should sound good that sets the moment where the designs starts to deviate from what actually performs well. I think that it can not be stressed enough that every design decision must be based on a proven listening advantage. Good ideas is not enough for a design to be succesful, a really good design must come from a combination of skills, good ideas and listening tests.

And "just listen" can be adopted by anyone.

[ThomasOK]

hcl, I think this may be the best post you have put on here and I thoroughly agree.

[beck]

The more I listen the better I understand that it is ever so simple. I take an old record from before digital arrived and listen to full bodied sounds from the bass, drums and the rest. That is the quality of "in tune" sound.
Then I take the digital remaster and the body of the sounds have vanished and now I hear a lot of different sounds spread all over the place. That is "out of tune" sound.

No wonder that you need a lot of power to regain some of the lost body of the sounds from the record!

But now that is a great plan to sell more and earn more for someone like Linn!

Linn came to a crossroad when digital arrived. Their Cd players never got it quite right like the sondek and therefore they had to change the sound created by the amplification making lp and cd sound more like the same to be able to sell cd players!

I want the body of my baby(records!) not her makeup and not the smoke from her cigarettes!

[Music Lover]

The more I listen the better I understand that it is ever so simple. I take an old record from before digital arrived and listen to full bodied sounds from the bass, drums and the rest. That is the quality of "in tune" sound.
Then I take the digital remaster and the body of the sounds have vanished and now I hear a lot of different sounds spread all over the place. That is "out of tune" sound.

And what storage and player are you using for the dig files?
If you optimize the dig stuff, it's quite good. (ripping, NAS, cables etc etc)
And the remaster process could destroy the music as well.

[beck]

Yes, I am talking about the remastering of records and early days of digital. I will leave it up to the jury to make the verdict on todays digital offerings.

But there is no doubt in my mind: going for the "old" Linn sound avoiding digital interference in the signal chain from record to amplifiers gets me a muscular in tune sound that is making my little system believe it is a lot bigger. The weight behind the notes being played is addictive and "tells" me that there is a real band in my room.

[Chapelier]

I'd like to react to Linn's witted headline, because it's the subject of this thread… and maybe it's only me, but sometimes it feels like Linn tries to articulate two different philosophies at the same time.

Yes, they have this "Just listen" philosophy going on since a long time.. but then, meanwhile, you can hear dealers and marketing adverts saying their system "gets you closer" to the artist or the record, as if not only their equipments sound better, but they reveal the truth about your records collection; and that… I don't know, it just feels weird when your headline is "Just listen", because on one hand it says : "Sit back and tell me if you enjoy the music or not", while it also says: "Listen, this is what music should sound like, because it was meant like this".

Saying that, I don't really want to prove a point of some sort, I'm just expressing my two cents on the way they use this headline. And yes, you can always defend that "the closer it is to what the producers wanted it to sound like, the better it will be", but I don't usually respect that kind of rhetoric.

[beck]

I would say that the "Ivor version" of "Just Listen" is all about changing as little as possible making it possible to listen and react as you would when listening to live music.

What Ivor found out when he started was that mechanical and electric imperfections in the replay chain could push the sound out of tune (this was before digital arrived). The natural relation between notes and how they blend together and even timing could be affected by these imperfections.
So his main focus was to create a replay chain that would not change the delicate signal (pushing it in a different direction) so that the listener could enjoy the music the same way as with live music.

My concern is that most of us are drawn towards "different" (read out of tune) sound because it is more exiting and more impressive at first.

Unfortunately companies, dealers and record producers know this and has to earn a living. So no help from them (maybe except Fredrik, I have not had the chance yet to listen to his equipment).

With the help from my direct cut analog records and some listening to equipment from Linn in the digital age I have finally become so aware of what I love to listen to that I can listen for myself without leaning towards a brand and still pick the right choice for me when looking for new equipment. I have only waited 20 years for this!!

My advice to others is to "Just Listen". If your focus when listening is always drawn towards the performance of the band, singer, the melody and so on you are on the road to music. If not you are lost in hifi wilderness.

[lejonklou]

My advice to others is to "Just Listen". If your focus when listening is always drawn towards the performance of the band, singer, the melody and so on you are on the road to music. If not you are lost in hifi wilderness.

Well said!