Latest DS firmware

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donuk
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Latest DS firmware

Post by donuk »

What do we think of the Linn tone controls? Exciting times. Lots to get one's head round. My initial impressions very favourable. Roll on the endless debates and adjustments.

If you don't know what I'm talking about just run Konfig and update.....

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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Ozzzy189 »

Hi don!
I'm having a play today between nights.... So far it's really divided my opinion.
On the one hand it's more detailed and less boomy, on the other it's a bit flat and lifeless and bass has just gone completely.
Need to try different types of music but this is what happens when you get something to screw around with.... It's not always a good idea.
I'm probably in the minority, but imo it sounds worse in my house at louder volumes. I'm a bit perplexed by all the technology that goes with it I don't mind admitting but so far I'm not over enamoured with the sound.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Music Lover »

Ozzzy189 wrote:Hi don!
On the one hand it's more detailed and less boomy, on the other it's a bit flat and lifeless and bass has just gone completely.
I guess you need to fine-tune the settings as with Exakt.
But start comparing the musical performance with every Space setting disabled (if possible) and compare with the best non-Space firmware.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by donuk »

I will be brave and jot down a few comments.
Firstly it installed like a dream, and I had it working in a few minutes. I put in a few approximate estimated measurements to configure the notch filters. My little room apparently kicks off a lot around 53 Hz and a bit at 66Hz. It all went according to plan, having installed the latest Konfig and ADS/1 firmware.
What struck me immediately was how nice the new firmware sounds without any frequency profiling.
Then I clicked in the filters. It made the room seem larger and the hifi quieter. I sort of know what Ozzzy is hearing, but I like the effect. It means that I have the system up louder with hurting my ears, if you see what I mean.
I was also able to use the new toy to set a bit of high frequency roll off, which was nice on some tracks at higher volumes.
I installed things a bit more thoroughly this morning. It is worthwhile measuring the room accurately and putting in all the windows and doors. The programme designers allow you the facility of having windows and doors in your floor and ceiling!
I think on some tracks, these enhancements will not be of much benefit, but I particularly enjoyed listening to a recording of Bach Passacaglia from Albi Cathedral, which I know well (both the place and the tune). For the first time some of the long pedal notes did not “take off”, they kept their place alongside the other notes. Also the effect of the size of the Cathedral was apparent.
I will be really interested to know what you guys who understand Tune-dem make of it all. I suspect it will not please everyone. It is a radical development in my view. Not least because the days of having to avoid or obtain a certain cable or fitting because it was bright or dull, could be limited. Yes, I know one should never use hardware as a tone control, but in reality of lot of folk do it.
I downloaded a freebie signal generator onto my iPad this afternoon, and fed it via the network into the DS. I scanned through, and could easily hear the considerable sharp notch the filtering was putting in at 53 Hz. It has been suggested by the inestimable Briain on the Linn forum that one could experiment and perhaps not make the cut so strong. Who said that the digital domain got rid of equipment tweaking?
I am not sure what information Linn use to define the characteristics of various speakers they offer for configuration. For example, I have Spendor A6. They offer A6/R which is physically much the same but has a different frequency specification. Linn Ninkas, however have a similar spec to the A6s. I have tried both configurations, and have not noticed much difference. Notch filter settings are not modified by the speaker chosen, as far as I can see.
I think the implications of the Exakt developments which has given rise to this software being (generously) available for all DS owners have yet to be fully understood. In my mind Linn has now digitally come of age, whether the products require more maturity remains to be seen.
If some of you clever guys can add to my knowledge or correct my understanding, please do....
Don, beautiful downtown York
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by David Neel »

It sounds good but.... It's going to be a while before I try this.

As ML suggests, I need to compare current favourite firmware with Davaar 25 on neutral setting first. For me, I will wait until I have a full free half day to experiment, as I know that any time pressure is bad for my ability to perceive changes correctly. But if this can tame my nightmare room, I'll be very happy. I'll let you all know in a few weeks' time.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Ozzzy189 »

I think it's, for me anyway, taken the musicality away from my equipment. Fred's gear being particularly good in that respect. It's a little bit odd that the majority of Linn owners saying it's made noticeable to large improvements but the few Lejonklou guys aren't so bowled over just yet.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Spannko »

Ozzzy189 wrote:I think it's, for me anyway, taken the musicality away from my equipment. Fred's gear being particularly good in that respect. It's a little bit odd that the majority of Linn owners saying it's made noticeable to large improvements but the few Lejonklou guys aren't so bowled over just yet.
I see you mention on the Linn forum that you haven't optimised the SPACE settings. You need to adjust the SPACE calculated settings - they're usually far too aggressive and produce the problem you are describing.

From my experiments so far, adjusting the SPACE settings are critical in order to achieve a tuneful sound and I've done a couple of "non-standard" adjustments in order to understand SPACE more:-

I've used the same values for L&R speaker positions, regardless of their actual position in the room. i.e. although they vary by 25mm from each side wall, I've given them the same value. Similarly for the distance to the front wall. I've done this for 2 reasons. 1) I have a window to the left of my left speaker, and a wall to the right of my right speaker. Also, my speakers are placed in front of cupboards either side of a fire place with an 18" chimney breast. So I could choose from a multitude of distances from speaker (to front wall. 2) Until I know how SPACE really affects the sound, and what setting does what, I feel a lot happier knowing that each speaker is being adjusted by the same amount in order to satisfy my lay belief/bias that this is important in order to maintain musical coherence. For the same reason, I haven't included the window to the left of the system.

I've adjusted the room mode frequencies slightly to values obtained from an actual room measurement. SPACE was surprisingly accurate with its calculations so I have only changed the frequencies by a maximum of about 2Hz.


When I've got the system sounding as good as it can, I'll gradually reintroduce things like windows, doors, positional offsets and SPACE calculated values to see what effects they introduce. I also want to make adjustments to things like "distance to listener" etc to see how it affects the tune.

From what I can tell so far, adjusting SPACE is just like TuneDeming speaker position - only I don't have to move the speakers! (Edit: Providing they were initially TuneDem'd into position)
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Spannko »

I've just been doing another SPACE on/SPACE off comparison, and I have to say, I'm very impressed with what I am hearing. I didn't make any adjustments other than just switch SPACE on and off.

Because there are quite a few people who are still unsure about SPACE, I started with Linn's 24 bit Ingrid Fliter recording of Chopin's 24 Preludes. I chose this because it's a recording of a solo piano and I wanted to concentrate on the tune rather than be distracted by such things as "has SPACE cleaned the bass up or is there more or less bass"? In other words, I didn't want to get drawn into using SPACE as a tone control and trying to decide if I liked the "sound" more or less. I've mentioned before that I really like this particular recording because it's allowed me, for the first time, to "get" Chopin. Previously I've found Chopin a bit inaccessible and much preferred something like Beethoven's sonatas. Without SPACE I enjoyed the performance, however with SPACE it scared me! People talk about goose bumps, but this was worse than that - I wanted to hide behind a cushion! - such was the improvement in tune, and particularly timing. The performance was full of passion and power, and not once did I think about the bass quality.

Then I tried Tulane on the Steve Gibbons Band, Live at the Robin '98 16 bit recording. With SPACE there was an immediate slight improvement in tune, but a very noticeable improvement in timing again. This time it was obvious what SPACE is doing to the bass - suddenly, it was so much easier to follow the bass lines, but more importantly, the bass player's timing was bang on, and the drummer was right there with him!

A common theme seems to be emerging: SPACE improves the tune and really improves the timing. I've noticed this on the radio too. Previously I've found a lot of the music played on Linn Jazz Radio a little bit too tricky for my taste. However, I've been listening to it with SPACE switched on, and I've really enjoyed nearly everything - Tommy Smith is somebody I definitely want to look into. It seems to make bands play much tighter - live really does have a live "feeling".

It's worth mentioning that I think I've been a bit lucky landing on settings that don't make things worse. I came across them when making big changes, with the intention of then making smaller changes to gradually dial in the sound. I noticed that what I had done worked well, and making further changes just made things worse. I haven't had time to adjust the settings properly (probably next week now), but when I do, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to improve the sound further. Exciting times ahead!
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by lejonklou »

Listened to a brief demonstration of Space on a Majik DSM yesterday. Musically best was with Space switched off. With the standard settings, according to room dimensions, the sound was very Exakt (sic!) and I could hear every detail more clearly. But musically, it was terrible. No flow, no sense of purpose in the performance.

Last option was with the calculated room nodes reduced to just a fraction of the suggested values. Perhaps a tenth from what I could tell from a quick glance on the screen. This was much better than the calculated Space settings, with less weird effects on the timing. But once again, with Space switched off, it sounded less impressive, less Exakt and musically more flowing and enjoyable.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Ozzzy189 »

Fredrik, I have found if I'm going to use space then around 75% of the suggested reduction is when the music comes back in my circumstances. At 50 it starts to become listenable. I'm a little bemused at how many people have in awe so far yet all it did for me was take away the musicality of my system. It just shows how different and subjective it all is!
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by lejonklou »

I disagree that it's subjective. I think that currently, a lot of people are mistaking clarity for musicality. These are two different things and very often clarity is a trap that conceals lack of musicality.

These last few weeks I have been on several demonstrations of digital versus analogue volume control. Here to me it's evident how some people are seduced by the apparent clarity of the digital volume and fail to hear that the music looses its natural flow and the sense of purpose in the musicianship (even at volumes around 80, where it has the least problems). Frankly, I'm troubled by how many fall into this trap.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by SaltyDog »

Just reporting my impressions, not having made a comparison.

Davaar 25 is flat and lifeless.

Davaar 23 (sorry which version is not available atm) is much better musically on my system.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Spannko »

I agree that one of the main benefits of using TuneDem is that it removes subjectivity. However, I can't agree with the idea that all of those who prefer SPACE/Exakt are being impressed by the clarity and feeling that this represents an improvement. I accept that this may be an explanation for some peoples comments, but let's not forget there may be other explanations too!

Come to think of it, as it's an experiential phenomena, we can only comment on our own experience. To comment on someone elses experience, without being there to share the experience and understand how they came to their conclusion is a bit unfair.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Ozzzy189 »

See my post regarding this issue on page 25 on the linn watch this space thread.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Ozzzy189 »

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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Ozzzy189 »

But surely if one person thinks it sounds better, and one disagrees, whether one's right or they're both wrong is still subjective surely?
The vast amount of folk saying how fantastic things are, are describing the sound when I first tried my system without a pre amp. Pretty impressive with details initially, but tiring over a longer period with no feeling or emotion.
Interested to hear that people are also describing the sound as flat, I believe I was the first user to post this and since that a few more have said the same. I need to see if there's a pattern emerging. Does space add something that the linn sound is missing, yet take it away from Lejonklou?
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Spannko »

I think if we use piano tuners as an example, there's no room for subjectivity. A piano's either in tune, or it isn't, regardless of who tuned it! TuneDem is no different - one system is more tuneful than another, or it isn't.

However, if one person thinks their system is "better" than another, they're absolutely right!

I think the pre-amp example is a good one and demonstrates what we are talking about well. Initially, DS to power amp was very impressive, but ultimately lacked the musicality of going through a pre-amp. SPACE isn't like this for me - in my system, my room etc, it's clearly (no pun intended!) more musical.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote: I think that currently, a lot of people are mistaking clarity for musicality.
That is a possibility. Can also be other factors (ex installation and tuning)
On the other hand, nothing new. This was a reality even before Exakt.

"clarity of music" vs "understanding of music".
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by SaltyDog »

I have not been keeping up with all the development lately.

Do all you have speakers that are on the list in Konfig?

My ATCs are not and I have done none of the messing about with any settings.

Curious if some speakers are responding better than others.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Erik »

SaltyDog wrote:Just reporting my impressions, not having made a comparison.

Davaar 25 is flat and lifeless.

Davaar 23 (sorry which version is not available atm) is much better musically on my system.
I totally agree. I prefer Davaar 4.12.357, best so far.

/Erik
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Spannko »

I also preferred an earlier Davaar, finding it much more musical. However I find the combination of the latest Davaar and SPACE to be preferable.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by tokenbrit »

Does anyone have the 4.19.789 beta build for Klimax Renew that they could make available?

I'd appreciate a copy before exploring musical frontiers, or otherwise, of SPACE
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Spannko »

tokenbrit wrote:Does anyone have the 4.19.789 beta build for Klimax Renew that they could make available?

I'd appreciate a copy before exploring musical frontiers, or otherwise, of SPACE
I see what you did there! LOL :-)
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote:I agree that one of the main benefits of using TuneDem is that it removes subjectivity. However, I can't agree with the idea that all of those who prefer SPACE/Exakt are being impressed by the clarity and feeling that this represents an improvement. I accept that this may be an explanation for some peoples comments, but let's not forget there may be other explanations too!
You are right and I'm not claiming this explains everything I don't agree with. I am just observing that it has become very common. Many don't yet recognize the digital distortion and mistake it for precision and clarity. But I think that will change as we learn and adapt our hearing. Just like with CD and DS - how many didn't say that finally, a new format passed LP in sound quality? I can even recall a bunch of retailers voicing such thoughts at the time. Then a couple of years later and that old analogue format was once again the best.
Music Lover wrote:"clarity of music" vs "understanding of music".
Yes! That's exactly it. To get to the understanding part, one has to connect with the music emotionally, not just analyze the details, the structure or the rhythm. There is a layer below that, a very delicate one, that contains information necessary for understanding. That, for me, is where the real magic happens.
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Re: Latest DS firmware

Post by Spannko »

"Clarity Vs Understanding"

So is it being suggested that the primary determinant of a good system has evolved from "tune" to "understanding"?
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