Exakt installation

[hcl]

I'm creating a new thread here for the quite specific debate about whether Exakt-systems need more careful installation than any previous known system in order to perform musically.

The first post is a reply to ThomasOK:s lengthy post on this side.

/Az

Thank ypu Thomas for sharing. I would like to comments on your post.

1. Well after the summer there where an upgrade to the Exakt software that much improved the performance of the systems. So much so I would disregard any pre autumn listening experiences of Exakt. As far as I know this is also consistent with Anders view.

2. My experience is that all good systems require serious set-up attention to perform well. Systems not requireing that are not good and will not ever sound any good (I mean be musically really good). I would guess that this has to do with precision. A precise system will sound precise but precisely off, when not set-up properly. A less precise system sounds less precise irrespective of set-up.

I agree about most of your the Exakt systems set-up findings, but am a bit surprised that you think 1/8 " to be precise. I would stress that it requires at least a precision of 1/32 " accuracy for the system to perform really well, maybe even less. I also think that you did not put in enough work on the manual adjustment of the room mode correction. Even in Anders small room the room node compensation is no where near the recommendations of the room correction software.

May I add that the Exakt systems (Akudorik and Akubarik) I have heard, that have been properly set-up, have sounded from very good to blody marvelous, especially musically. To be fair I should also add that I have heard Akubarik sound un-involving both before and after the major software update.

[lejonklou]

I must say it's amusing to read that, according to hcl, a precision of at least 1/32 inch is required to make a speaker perform well. That's 0.79 mm.

Yes, half a mm matters, but can it ruin the performance of a world class speaker? Absolutely not.

On the contrary, I find that quality can be recognized even when the positioning is way off.

[ThomasOK]

I must say it's amusing to read that, according to hcl, a precision of at least 1/32 inch is required to make a speaker perform well. That's 0.79 mm.

Yes, half a mm matters, but can it ruin the performance of a world class speaker? Absolutely not.

On the contrary, I find that quality can be recognized even when the positioning is way off.

What he said.

All comparisons were performed this year and December of last year.

[hcl]

I must say it's amusing to read that, according to hcl, a precision of at least 1/32 inch is required to make a speaker perform well. That's 0.79 mm.

Yes, half a mm matters, but can it ruin the performance of a world class speaker? Absolutely not.

On the contrary, I find that quality can be recognized even when the positioning is way off.

Did I say that performance would be ruined if not spot on the optimum position? No, what I wrote was that would be required for the system to perform REALLY well (which is what I would expect from guys like Thomas and You, but ai guess I was wrong in hat respect). I also get that you strive to discredit me, all the way since I wrote my first negative impression of the Tundra 1.0. That is just sad.

[lejonklou]

Did I say that performance would be ruined if not spot on the optimum position? No, what I wrote was that would be required for the system to perform REALLY well (which is what I would expect from guys like Thomas and You, but ai guess I was wrong in hat respect). I also get that you strive to discredit me, all the way since I wrote my first negative impression of the Tundra 1.0. That is just sad.

I apologize for the word "amusing", hcl. I assume that is what annoyed you and I agree that it was unnecessary.

No I don't try to discredit you, I argue with you when I think you're wrong. And there are many things we disagree about.

Apparently ultra precision of loudspeaker positioning is one of those things. I don't think I have ever gone below 1/32", perhaps not even below 1/16", on a demo and I find I get great results anyway. There are many other details I find more important.

[hcl]

Did I say that performance would be ruined if not spot on the optimum position? No, what I wrote was that would be required for the system to perform REALLY well (which is what I would expect from guys like Thomas and You, but ai guess I was wrong in hat respect). I also get that you strive to discredit me, all the way since I wrote my first negative impression of the Tundra 1.0. That is just sad.

I apologize for the word "amusing", hcl. I assume that is what annoyed you and I agree that it was unnecessary.

No I don't try to discredit you, I argue with you when I think you're wrong. And there are many things we disagree about.

Apparently ultra precision of loudspeaker positioning is one of those things. I don't think I have ever gone below 1/32", perhaps not even below 1/16", on a demo and I find I get great results anyway. There are many other details I find more important.

What I find amusing is that we seemed to agree on almost everything before your release of Tundra and after that you seem to seek out and emphasise every little thing I write that you could have a differing angle towards.

[lejonklou]

What I find amusing is that we seemed to agree on almost everything before your release of Tundra and after that you seem to seek out and emphasise every little thing I write that you could have a differing angle towards.

Again; sorry you feel that way. I don't and I had no problem with you critisizing my product. You seem to think you're the only one who has done that, but I assure you I have received a lot of feedback, positive and negative. I appreciate all of it.

My impression in this case is that you are trying to dismiss Thomas' review of Exakt by claiming he hasn't been careful enough with the installation. As I know of very few people on this planet who are as quality-minded, careful and methodical as he is, I find your comments on sub-1/32" precision a wee bit silly. This is the guy who introduced us to the CAL-36/4 torque tool and has shared countless tips on how to fine tune HiFi components and systems! When he got the first Exakt system in the store he emailed a bunch of people asking for advice on how to perfect the installation. I received it as well, but had nothing to contribute.

[ThomasOK]

In looking at this again it seems that there was a misreading of my original post by hcl. Nowhere did I say that I set the speakers to a precision of 1/8". I said that I was moving the speakers in 1/8' increments. This is quite different. In terms of precision of placement, which I would equate with the accuracy of the distances to the back wall and each other, I place speakers as accurately as possible. Left and right speakers measured the same distance from the wall within my ability to measure using the Linn supplied laser measuring device which measures in 1mm increments and a tape measure I always carry in my pocket which probably allows me a bit more accuracy than that. Like Fredrik I find that 1/8" increments of motion are generally enough for maximum performance although sometimes 1/16" has been necessary as with the Aktiv Akubariks. But again that is how far I am moving them and does not indicate that their placement in the room is plus or minus 1/8".

[hcl]

Discussion about the moderation is welcome in the "forum issues" thread.

Well, that would be convenient, not to let the usual crowd be informed of the opinion related moderation taking place here. Opinions related to the thread topic, but going against the opinion of the moderator seem to be ok to be moved away to a thread soon to be forgotten. Honest hifi. Yea right.

The only text in the following post that does not refer to the performance of Exakt is the moderators explanation for moving it. Some of my writing where formulated in a general way, but it was sertainly directed as a comment on Thomas post.

I'm creating a new thread here for the quite specific debate about whether Exakt-systems need more careful installation than any previous known system in order to perform musically.

The first post is a reply to ThomasOK:s lengthy post on this side.

/Az

Thank ypu Thomas for sharing. I would like to comments on your post.

1. Well after the summer there where an upgrade to the Exakt software that much improved the performance of the systems. So much so I would disregard any pre autumn listening experiences of Exakt. As far as I know this is also consistent with Anders view.

2. My experience is that all good systems require serious set-up attention to perform well. Systems not requireing that are not good and will not ever sound any good (I mean be musically really good). I would guess that this has to do with precision. A precise system will sound precise but precisely off, when not set-up properly. A less precise system sounds less precise irrespective of set-up.

I agree about most of your the Exakt systems set-up findings, but am a bit surprised that you think 1/8 " to be precise. I would stress that it requires at least a precision of 1/32 " accuracy for the system to perform really well, maybe even less. I also think that you did not put in enough work on the manual adjustment of the room mode correction. Even in Anders small room the room node compensation is no where near the recommendations of the room correction software.

May I add that the Exakt systems (Akudorik and Akubarik) I have heard, that have been properly set-up, have sounded from very good to blody marvelous, especially musically. To be fair I should also add that I have heard Akubarik sound un-involving both before and after the major software update.

[hcl]

In looking at this again it seems that there was a misreading of my original post by hcl. Nowhere did I say that I set the speakers to a precision of 1/8". I said that I was moving the speakers in 1/8' increments. This is quite different. In terms of precision of placement, which I would equate with the accuracy of the distances to the back wall and each other, I place speakers as accurately as possible. Left and right speakers measured the same distance from the wall within my ability to measure using the Linn supplied laser measuring device which measures in 1mm increments and a tape measure I always carry in my pocket which probably allows me a bit more accuracy than that. Like Fredrik I find that 1/8" increments of motion are generally enough for maximum performance although sometimes 1/16" has been necessary as with the Aktiv Akubariks. But again that is how far I am moving them and does not indicate that their placement in the room is plus or minus 1/8".

I am a bit surprised that so much focus are made to the accuracy of measuring the speaker position. It was just a side comment on my behalf. The reference to the discussion with Anders was used as some kind of confirmation of the assesment and I thought this was my main remark, as also numbered (1).

[ThomasOK]

I did answer number 1 previously. The 242 evaluations were all done within the last 5 to 6 weeks. The E350 evaluations during December and early January. All software was updated to latest versions. All cables except network cables and the Silvers in our LP12 were supplied by Linn.

[tokenbrit]

How are you guys installing down to the mm, or half mm? That's the difference between a spike going one side of a carpet fiber or the other, not to mention the extent to which the distance to the wall or from each other might change as a result of setting the spikes into wooden flooring, or when levelling the speaker precisely.

Undoubtedly the set-up is important but personal experience is that it's the fine tuning to improve the musicality, in analogue. In contrast, it appears to be argued that it's the making or breaking of Exakt musicality.

If that level of installation is critical to making Exakt work as intended, then we're in a worse position than we were with LP12 set-up, with only a very few dealers being able to 'properly' install Exakt in their own rooms, let alone in buyers homes...

If it's that difficult to get Exakt to deliver on Linn's promise, such that even systems set up by Linn themselves don't always deliver, that would appear to be a fundamental issue with the technology as currently available.

[Charlie1]

I'm sure Tom has done the utmost to get the bestout of these systems. His comments over previous years suggest that he is as diligent as anyone could possibly be.

Just to further muddy the waters, the most I've enjoyed Exakt was the first time I heard it. Well worn 350A's and their arrays (i.e. not Exakt), cold EKDSM and early s/w. The 350A's would have been carefully positioned, but otherwise hardly optimal according to recent comments. I was genuinely drawn into the music and found it fun. On the other hand, I too have heard Exakt sound boring with zero ability to draw me into the music. It's like we're missing a piece of the puzzle.

[Music Lover]

How are you guys installing down to the mm, or half mm? That's the difference between a spike going one side of a carpet fiber or the other, not to mention the extent to which the distance to the wall or from each other might change as a result of setting the spikes into wooden flooring, or when levelling the speaker precisely.

Guess we all have our individual procedures but I use Skeets and start by leveling the speakers. Then moving them step by step.
Under 1mm, impossible for me as well.
Down to 1mm is not always possible but I use sneakers gently kicking the stands to SLOWLY move the speakers, while looking at the folding rule.

Undoubtedly the set-up is important but personal experience is that it's the fine tuning to improve the musicality, in analogue. In contrast, it appears to be argued that it's the making or breaking of Exakt musicality.

According to my experience, all speakers benefit from careful positioning.
Not sure I ever read someone stating it's about making or breaking Exakt performance.
To me it's less important if the last mm is important or not, regardless I try to tweak as much as possible!

I also like to express my gratitude towards Thomas for his dedication to details and for his time writing about his findings - highly appreciated !!!
Same goes to ALL contributors, regardless if we agree or not. All comments are welcomed if it's done with a civilized tone and with respect for other opinions.

[MisterH]

Firstly can I say I thought Thomas's post was interesting.

However thinking a little further on from discussions of speaker position and precision of placement, my understanding of Exakt which I admit is small, is that it does several things using software, these being correction for room, correction for drivers, and correction for speaker position where speakers are not in the optimum position. I thought I had read or heard that this is how Linn demonstrated it at the dealer launch of Exakt ?

My question is, are my assumptions correct and if so why is speaker position so critical when using Exakt ?

[tokenbrit]

How are you guys installing down to the mm, or half mm? That's the difference between a spike going one side of a carpet fiber or the other, not to mention the extent to which the distance to the wall or from each other might change as a result of setting the spikes into wooden flooring, or when levelling the speaker precisely.

Guess we all have our individual procedures but I use Skeets and start by leveling the speakers. Then moving them step by step.
Under 1mm, impossible for me as well.
Down to 1mm is not always possible but I use sneakers gently kicking the stands to SLOWLY move the speakers, while looking at the folding rule.

Undoubtedly the set-up is important but personal experience is that it's the fine tuning to improve the musicality, in analogue. In contrast, it appears to be argued that it's the making or breaking of Exakt musicality.

According to my experience, all speakers benefit from careful positioning.
Not sure I ever read someone stating it's about making or breaking Exakt performance...

I position mine on Skeets but don't leave them on there... I try to adjust them optimally, on spikes, but am sure that's not down to the last mm. Still sound wonderfully musical to my ears despite the lack of finest precision compared with what others achieve, or argue to be necessary.

Posts in support of Exakt & Exakt musicality have stated that speakers need to be placed to less than a mm, and that the room correction needs to be optimised over every room node & frequency point. To me, those comments read like the set up of Exakt is make or break, but respect that may not be what was intended or how others read those posts.

[Music Lover]

In life, nothing is necessary.
Also I don't think you have a "make or break" tuning level you have to achieve to be able to obtain a musical reproduction.
However, when talking to Linn retailers with a good tune dem ear, they are clear that Exakt require more tuning compared with an analogue system. But this may possible be a consequence of not enough experience setting up Exakt systems...
FW a few years and we going to have the answer.

[hcl]

I think it is pretty clear. The better the system the more it requires of all enironmental conditions and the more revealing it is regarding set-up flaws. This has been the case with all systems up to now and as Exakt offer a new level of accuracy it also require a new level of installation accuracy. It does not mean that Exakt will perform less god than any other half hearted set up system, it just means that it is a bit more obvious on the Exakt system.

[tokenbrit]

The only demonstration I have read of Exakt vs analogue, with same set-up & near as possible the same components, was Thomas' comparison between Exakt and aktiv into 242s. If Exakt is more obvious of set-up then, to me, that is performing less well than other systems as it's more revealing of the flaws to the possible detriment of the music. If Linn themselves can't always set up Exakt to perform at it's best, and if Exakt doesn't win in musical comparison with a similarly set-up analogue system, then there's still a way to go with the technology, IMO, and dealer support becomes ever more important.

Klimax Exakt in isolation did not do it for me in the way that Linn/Lejonklou does, and that's with Exakt expertly set up in a dem room vs my inexpert set up at home. We both appear to agree that set up is important, even more so with Exakt, hence my 'make of break' interpretation of yours & others' posts. The difference is in our personal conclusion: yours that Exakt is better despite revealing flaws; mine that Linn/Lejonklou is better because it reveals the music. No right or wrong - just individual preference. I hope you find the installation & set-up for Exakt to deliver the performance you are looking for.